1
00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:36,800
<i>I want to tell you</i>

2
00:00:36,900 --> 00:00:39,370
<i>about a book that kept me awake</i>
<i>for two nights this week</i>

3
00:00:39,470 --> 00:00:40,771
<i>as I read it.</i>

4
00:00:40,871 --> 00:00:42,306
<i>It's one of those</i>
<i>you-can't-put-down books.</i>

5
00:00:42,407 --> 00:00:44,409
<i>It was a journey of horror,</i>

6
00:00:44,509 --> 00:00:46,610
<i>of sadism, and perversion.</i>

7
00:00:46,710 --> 00:00:49,447
<i>A story</i>
<i>of brutality and death.</i>

8
00:00:49,546 --> 00:00:52,916
<i>It is the story of a woman</i>
<i>who wrestled with the Devil...</i>

9
00:00:53,017 --> 00:00:54,252
<i>and won.</i>

10
00:00:58,322 --> 00:01:00,757
Joining me now
from Victoria is Michelle Smith,

11
00:01:00,857 --> 00:01:03,560
a one-time victim of abuse
by a Satanic cult,

12
00:01:03,660 --> 00:01:05,363
and Dr. Lawrence Pazder,

13
00:01:05,463 --> 00:01:06,763
the psychiatrist

14
00:01:06,863 --> 00:01:08,232
who helped her come to terms
with that nightmare.

15
00:01:08,332 --> 00:01:10,867
They are co-authors of the book
<i>Michelle Remembers.</i>

16
00:01:10,967 --> 00:01:13,037
The book
is called <i>Michelle Remembers.</i>

17
00:01:13,137 --> 00:01:17,275
The authors are Michelle Smith
and Lawrence Pazder, M.D.,

18
00:01:17,375 --> 00:01:18,575
who, acting as a psychiatrist,

19
00:01:18,675 --> 00:01:20,478
extracted from her

20
00:01:20,577 --> 00:01:24,781
bizarre childhood memories
of Satan...

21
00:01:24,881 --> 00:01:26,683
which have shocked many people.

22
00:01:26,783 --> 00:01:28,718
Michelle Smith
created a sensation

23
00:01:28,819 --> 00:01:31,522
with her story of abuse
at the hands of a Satanic cult.

24
00:01:31,621 --> 00:01:33,990
This was
the first publicized account

25
00:01:34,092 --> 00:01:35,259
of such rituals.

26
00:01:35,359 --> 00:01:36,660
Now, you've mentioned evidence

27
00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,596
which proves
some of the early things

28
00:01:39,696 --> 00:01:40,764
you feel
that happened to her

29
00:01:40,864 --> 00:01:43,034
as a small child
in Victoria, B.C..

30
00:01:43,134 --> 00:01:45,669
I have to say
that the evidence is clear

31
00:01:45,769 --> 00:01:47,704
that this came
from an experience

32
00:01:47,804 --> 00:01:48,905
that Michelle had.

33
00:01:49,006 --> 00:01:51,175
Michelle, can I ask you

34
00:01:51,275 --> 00:01:53,643
what it was that,
after four years of therapy

35
00:01:53,743 --> 00:01:55,580
and this deep state
of consciousness,

36
00:01:55,679 --> 00:01:57,647
that came out of your mind?

37
00:01:57,747 --> 00:02:00,118
Uh, basically,
what I remembered

38
00:02:00,218 --> 00:02:03,521
was a 14-month period of my life
at age five,

39
00:02:03,620 --> 00:02:06,290
where I was given
to a group of people,

40
00:02:06,390 --> 00:02:08,526
whom, at first, I wasn't aware
of what they were doing

41
00:02:08,625 --> 00:02:09,993
other than, to a child,

42
00:02:10,094 --> 00:02:12,430
they were adults doing things
I couldn't understand,

43
00:02:12,530 --> 00:02:13,464
and it frightened me.

44
00:02:13,564 --> 00:02:14,865
They would put me in cages,

45
00:02:14,965 --> 00:02:17,502
they would
sacrifice animals,

46
00:02:17,602 --> 00:02:19,103
they would have
a lot of candles,

47
00:02:19,203 --> 00:02:20,104
and chanting,

48
00:02:20,204 --> 00:02:22,772
and bizarre things
I had never seen.

49
00:02:22,873 --> 00:02:26,244
Eating feces, and orgies,
and-- and, um...

50
00:02:26,344 --> 00:02:27,512
dismembering fetuses--

51
00:02:27,612 --> 00:02:29,313
these were things
that you experienced?

52
00:02:29,413 --> 00:02:30,548
That's right.

53
00:02:30,647 --> 00:02:31,681
Now, when you say
something like that,

54
00:02:31,781 --> 00:02:32,983
that's alarming-- I mean,

55
00:02:33,084 --> 00:02:34,751
people get terrified
by this sort of thing.

56
00:02:34,851 --> 00:02:38,189
I mean,
are they rightfully terrified?

57
00:02:38,289 --> 00:02:39,756
I think that, today,

58
00:02:39,856 --> 00:02:41,892
that it's very, very wise

59
00:02:41,992 --> 00:02:43,461
to take a good, hard look

60
00:02:43,561 --> 00:02:44,895
at where
you place your children,

61
00:02:44,995 --> 00:02:46,930
into whose care
you place your child.

62
00:03:11,821 --> 00:03:12,889
I have been interested

63
00:03:12,989 --> 00:03:14,592
in the "Satanic Panic"
for years--

64
00:03:14,691 --> 00:03:16,993
I researched it for years...

65
00:03:18,362 --> 00:03:21,632
...and once I read
<i>Michelle Remembers,</i>

66
00:03:21,731 --> 00:03:24,435
I could not
get it out of my head.

67
00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:33,810
I did a five-part series
on <i>Michelle Remembers.</i>

68
00:03:33,910 --> 00:03:35,680
To me,
it was important

69
00:03:35,779 --> 00:03:38,782
to present a discussion
about it to people,

70
00:03:38,882 --> 00:03:40,051
because this book

71
00:03:40,151 --> 00:03:42,886
has helped shape the world
we now live in,

72
00:03:42,986 --> 00:03:46,657
and whose contents we have
to have some understanding of

73
00:03:46,756 --> 00:03:49,694
if we're going to know
how we got here, so...

74
00:03:49,793 --> 00:03:51,229
I think
of <i>Michelle Remembers</i>

75
00:03:51,329 --> 00:03:54,165
as the "Patient Zero"
of the Satanic Panic.

76
00:03:55,533 --> 00:03:56,900
The book begins

77
00:03:57,001 --> 00:04:00,504
when Michelle is in the hospital
following a miscarriage,

78
00:04:00,605 --> 00:04:02,340
and Dr. Pazder comes--

79
00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:05,610
because he, in the past,
has worked as her therapist--

80
00:04:05,710 --> 00:04:08,045
and she tells him
about a dream

81
00:04:08,145 --> 00:04:11,781
where there's an itchy spot
on her hand.

82
00:04:11,881 --> 00:04:15,353
She scratches it,
and then...

83
00:04:15,453 --> 00:04:20,057
countless tiny spiders
come surging forth,

84
00:04:20,157 --> 00:04:24,528
and she's extremely upset
by this dream,

85
00:04:24,629 --> 00:04:28,299
and so he decides,
based on this,

86
00:04:28,399 --> 00:04:31,235
that it's time for them
to return to therapy.

87
00:04:40,111 --> 00:04:42,380
<i>What went on in your childhood</i>

88
00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:43,947
<i>that you discovered?</i>

89
00:04:44,048 --> 00:04:47,752
<i>What, basically,</i>
<i>I began to remember</i>

90
00:04:47,884 --> 00:04:49,387
<i>was a series of events</i>
<i>that stretched out</i>

91
00:04:49,487 --> 00:04:51,622
<i>over about a 14-month period</i>
<i>in my life.</i>

92
00:04:51,722 --> 00:04:53,557
<i>Was this</i>
<i>through hypnosis, Doctor, or--?</i>

93
00:04:53,658 --> 00:04:55,092
<i>Actually, it's beyond hypnosis.</i>

94
00:04:55,192 --> 00:04:57,428
<i>It's a method</i>
<i>that Michelle had devised</i>

95
00:04:57,528 --> 00:04:59,163
<i>to go deep</i>
<i>into her depths.</i>

96
00:04:59,263 --> 00:05:00,531
<i>How had</i>
<i>you devised this technique</i>

97
00:05:00,631 --> 00:05:01,565
<i>yourself, Michelle?</i>

98
00:05:01,666 --> 00:05:03,034
<i>It just came about</i>

99
00:05:03,134 --> 00:05:05,636
<i>in the atmosphere</i>
<i>of Dr. Pazder saying to me,</i>

100
00:05:05,736 --> 00:05:09,707
<i>"Just go where you have to go.</i>
<i>I'll be there with you."</i>

101
00:05:09,806 --> 00:05:11,841
<i>I could then shut my eyes,</i>

102
00:05:11,941 --> 00:05:13,744
<i>and through breathing</i>
<i>very deeply,</i>

103
00:05:13,843 --> 00:05:15,646
<i>go way down inside.</i>

104
00:05:15,746 --> 00:05:20,318
<i>It felt very much like falling</i>
<i>over backwards into the dark...</i>

105
00:05:20,418 --> 00:05:23,987
<i>and that's where</i>
<i>I began to find the memories.</i>

106
00:05:29,393 --> 00:05:33,264
<i>Side "A"--</i>
<i>November 1976.</i>

107
00:06:14,405 --> 00:06:15,740
<i>The first thing I remembered</i>

108
00:06:15,840 --> 00:06:17,842
<i>was a night</i>
<i>when a group of people</i>

109
00:06:17,941 --> 00:06:20,544
<i>were gathered to do...</i>

110
00:06:20,644 --> 00:06:21,579
<i>I didn't know what.</i>

111
00:06:21,679 --> 00:06:23,581
<i>They were doing dances</i>

112
00:06:23,681 --> 00:06:26,050
<i>that were not like the dances</i>
<i>I was used to.</i>

113
00:06:26,150 --> 00:06:27,752
<i>They had the walls</i>
<i>draped in black.</i>

114
00:06:27,852 --> 00:06:29,053
<i>They had set up candles.</i>

115
00:06:32,989 --> 00:06:35,192
My mother was present...

116
00:06:35,292 --> 00:06:36,794
but not in the ceremony,
not in the ritual,

117
00:06:36,893 --> 00:06:38,329
she wasn't involved in that.

118
00:06:38,429 --> 00:06:42,666
Her position seemed to be
one of giving me to this group.

119
00:06:45,169 --> 00:06:47,671
<i>They were dedicated</i>

120
00:06:47,772 --> 00:06:50,174
<i>to doing a lot of seriously...</i>

121
00:06:50,274 --> 00:06:52,576
<i>frightening kind of things,</i>

122
00:06:52,676 --> 00:06:55,112
<i>and they sacrificed animals,</i>

123
00:06:55,212 --> 00:06:59,583
<i>and they used fetuses of babies</i>
<i>in their ceremonies.</i>

124
00:07:13,230 --> 00:07:17,034
<i>No! No! No!</i>

125
00:07:20,838 --> 00:07:22,273
<i>No!</i>

126
00:07:33,017 --> 00:07:34,752
Incredible story.

127
00:07:34,852 --> 00:07:36,387
Tell me about Michelle

128
00:07:36,487 --> 00:07:39,156
and what, in fact,
you believe

129
00:07:39,256 --> 00:07:41,358
happened to her
as a small child.

130
00:07:41,459 --> 00:07:43,828
Well, I have to back up
a little bit.

131
00:07:43,928 --> 00:07:47,498
I knew Michelle very well
through four years of therapy,

132
00:07:47,598 --> 00:07:48,866
uh, intensive therapy,

133
00:07:48,965 --> 00:07:50,201
and there was no evidence

134
00:07:50,301 --> 00:07:52,403
of any of this kind
of material present,

135
00:07:52,503 --> 00:07:54,371
but I knew her personality
and everything.

136
00:07:54,472 --> 00:07:57,641
When she came to me a year after
it had been discontinued,

137
00:07:57,741 --> 00:08:00,244
and went into a very deep level
of consciousness

138
00:08:00,344 --> 00:08:02,379
and began to relive,
essentially--

139
00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:06,684
to see, to hear, to feel,
and to tell me in detail--

140
00:08:06,784 --> 00:08:08,853
these events,
for 14 months,

141
00:08:08,953 --> 00:08:10,254
of what happened to her
as a child,

142
00:08:10,354 --> 00:08:12,756
it was very difficult
for me to...

143
00:08:12,857 --> 00:08:14,658
decide where
it was coming from.

144
00:08:16,727 --> 00:08:20,030
Victoria
was very small in the 1950s.

145
00:08:20,130 --> 00:08:22,299
I mean,
the population was 70,000--

146
00:08:22,399 --> 00:08:23,434
that's it.

147
00:08:23,534 --> 00:08:24,602
It was safe.

148
00:08:24,702 --> 00:08:26,470
It was quiet.

149
00:08:27,905 --> 00:08:29,807
Tertia's the oldest,

150
00:08:29,907 --> 00:08:32,276
and then Michelle
is the middle child,

151
00:08:32,376 --> 00:08:35,012
and I came along
five years later.

152
00:08:35,112 --> 00:08:36,914
Tertia was pretty.

153
00:08:37,014 --> 00:08:38,749
Michelle
was kind of a fuddy-duddy.

154
00:08:38,849 --> 00:08:40,651
I was gorgeous.

155
00:08:40,751 --> 00:08:42,553
No, I'm just joking!

156
00:08:44,221 --> 00:08:46,390
But Michelle and I were
always getting into trouble.

157
00:08:46,490 --> 00:08:50,060
I think that's because we had
such an up-and-down childhood.

158
00:08:52,296 --> 00:08:54,031
My mom,
she didn't have an easy life,

159
00:08:54,131 --> 00:08:55,199
raising three girls
on her own.

160
00:08:55,299 --> 00:08:56,767
I mean, Dad was in and out.

161
00:08:56,867 --> 00:08:59,336
You know, he was an alcoholic,

162
00:08:59,436 --> 00:09:01,405
and he had
a gambling problem, so...

163
00:09:02,506 --> 00:09:04,875
When you have a husband
that's an alcoholic,

164
00:09:04,975 --> 00:09:06,644
you don't have friends.

165
00:09:06,744 --> 00:09:08,045
You just don't.

166
00:09:08,145 --> 00:09:10,481
So Mom spent a very lonely life.

167
00:09:12,616 --> 00:09:14,485
My sisters talk about it now,
and it's-- they always say,

168
00:09:14,585 --> 00:09:16,520
"Well, she always--
she would drink,"

169
00:09:16,620 --> 00:09:19,089
and I said...

170
00:09:19,189 --> 00:09:20,858
"You know,
if I had three young girls,

171
00:09:20,958 --> 00:09:23,627
and I sat down in the evening
and had a cold beer,"

172
00:09:23,727 --> 00:09:26,630
you know, "I wouldn't classify
that as drinking," you know?

173
00:09:26,730 --> 00:09:29,767
She just, she had
a lot on her plate.

174
00:09:31,468 --> 00:09:34,039
We moved eight or nine times
in ten years

175
00:09:34,138 --> 00:09:35,306
because of Dad.

176
00:09:35,406 --> 00:09:36,740
Dad was quite violent.

177
00:09:37,975 --> 00:09:42,313
And it always happened
Easter, Christmas, Thanksgiving.

178
00:09:42,413 --> 00:09:44,682
We would all end up
at a hotel somewhere

179
00:09:44,782 --> 00:09:46,483
because the police
would have to come and take us,

180
00:09:46,584 --> 00:09:49,153
because Dad would
start to...

181
00:09:49,253 --> 00:09:52,156
terrorize
and destroy the house,

182
00:09:52,256 --> 00:09:54,191
and beat my mom up.

183
00:09:54,291 --> 00:09:55,693
That was my childhood. Right?

184
00:09:55,793 --> 00:09:58,729
You know, I just assumed
that's what everybody did--

185
00:09:58,829 --> 00:10:02,033
got drunk
and had fights.

186
00:10:02,132 --> 00:10:03,334
I don't know.

187
00:10:39,770 --> 00:10:42,239
Larry liked the limelight.

188
00:10:42,339 --> 00:10:44,241
You know,
everybody liked him

189
00:10:44,341 --> 00:10:47,078
and he liked being liked...

190
00:10:47,177 --> 00:10:49,114
and Michelle wasn't like that.

191
00:10:49,213 --> 00:10:52,316
Michelle is like a Puritan,
you know?

192
00:10:52,416 --> 00:10:55,419
No off-colour jokes, and...

193
00:10:55,519 --> 00:10:57,022
not really any swearing,

194
00:10:57,122 --> 00:10:59,723
and no alcohol.

195
00:10:59,823 --> 00:11:02,960
But Michelle is

196
00:11:03,061 --> 00:11:03,994
a caring,

197
00:11:04,095 --> 00:11:05,629
loving,

198
00:11:05,729 --> 00:11:07,798
gentle person

199
00:11:07,898 --> 00:11:10,234
who cares about the whole world.

200
00:11:10,334 --> 00:11:15,272
I worked with them
for about a year and a half,

201
00:11:15,372 --> 00:11:17,941
and I only did it
because I love typing.

202
00:11:19,443 --> 00:11:22,013
Larry had recorded everything
that Michelle said

203
00:11:22,113 --> 00:11:24,149
in her reliving process.

204
00:11:32,489 --> 00:11:34,159
He took his reel-to-reels,

205
00:11:34,258 --> 00:11:36,293
put it all on onto cassettes,

206
00:11:36,393 --> 00:11:38,462
and I went through
the whole 14 months

207
00:11:38,562 --> 00:11:39,797
from the beginning
to the end,

208
00:11:39,897 --> 00:11:43,200
and filled in
as much missing words and sounds

209
00:11:43,300 --> 00:11:44,802
as I could.

210
00:11:46,370 --> 00:11:50,441
And so, what Larry did
was he clipped out, you know,

211
00:11:50,541 --> 00:11:52,776
excerpts of the typing,

212
00:11:52,876 --> 00:11:54,511
and he would put that,

213
00:11:54,611 --> 00:11:56,847
and then put
his own writing underneath it,

214
00:11:56,947 --> 00:11:59,117
and then he'd give it to me,
and I'd type it all and--

215
00:11:59,216 --> 00:12:01,119
and send it off
to the publisher.

216
00:12:25,843 --> 00:12:28,146
To be 100% honest with you,

217
00:12:28,245 --> 00:12:31,482
I listened to all the tapes

218
00:12:31,582 --> 00:12:35,352
and I believe that something
happened to Michelle.

219
00:12:35,452 --> 00:12:37,755
There isn't much doubt
in my mind.

220
00:12:37,855 --> 00:12:41,759
Something definitely
happened to her, and...

221
00:12:41,859 --> 00:12:44,528
I do believe

222
00:12:44,628 --> 00:12:47,198
it was a group of Satanists,

223
00:12:47,297 --> 00:12:50,934
and they had her
for those 14 months.

224
00:13:07,284 --> 00:13:08,819
As they get deeper

225
00:13:08,919 --> 00:13:13,690
into these memories
of Satanic ritual abuse...

226
00:13:13,791 --> 00:13:16,727
Michelle learns
that her mother

227
00:13:16,827 --> 00:13:19,730
is not merely dabbling
in this social scene.

228
00:13:19,830 --> 00:13:22,167
She gave Michelle
to the Satanists

229
00:13:22,267 --> 00:13:24,601
because she is a Satanist.

230
00:13:24,701 --> 00:13:26,436
She belongs to these people.

231
00:13:42,187 --> 00:13:43,687
And essentially,

232
00:13:43,787 --> 00:13:46,291
the bulk
of <i>Michelle Remembers</i>

233
00:13:46,390 --> 00:13:49,660
is long descriptions

234
00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,997
of a young child
being mercilessly tortured.

235
00:14:12,783 --> 00:14:14,451
Dr. Pazder and Michelle

236
00:14:14,551 --> 00:14:16,687
were spending
more and more time together.

237
00:14:16,787 --> 00:14:20,557
The sessions are getting
up to six hours long.

238
00:14:20,657 --> 00:14:22,593
It's becoming
both of their worlds,

239
00:14:22,693 --> 00:14:24,595
and yet, surprisingly,

240
00:14:24,695 --> 00:14:28,966
each of them is going home
to a spouse each night--

241
00:14:29,067 --> 00:14:30,634
Michelle to her husband, Doug,

242
00:14:30,734 --> 00:14:33,971
and Dr. Pazder
to his wife, Marylyn.

243
00:14:38,408 --> 00:14:39,977
I met Larry
at Michelle's wedding

244
00:14:40,078 --> 00:14:43,314
when she was getting married
to Doug Smith.

245
00:14:43,413 --> 00:14:44,681
She loved Doug.

246
00:14:44,781 --> 00:14:46,683
They were happy, you know?

247
00:14:46,783 --> 00:14:49,220
He was a kind, kind person.

248
00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:50,854
Michelle had a huge imagination.

249
00:14:50,954 --> 00:14:53,724
She always created things--
she was very creative.

250
00:14:53,824 --> 00:14:56,261
So, she had made
her wedding dress

251
00:14:56,361 --> 00:14:59,563
and she had made
her husband's suit.

252
00:14:59,663 --> 00:15:01,531
But the wedding--
I remember Larry coming in,

253
00:15:01,632 --> 00:15:04,035
and, uh,
I thought it was odd...

254
00:15:04,135 --> 00:15:06,403
that a psychiatrist

255
00:15:06,503 --> 00:15:08,739
would show up at a wedding
of-of-- of a patient,

256
00:15:08,839 --> 00:15:10,974
but there must have been
a connection

257
00:15:11,075 --> 00:15:12,542
between Michelle and him.

258
00:15:19,917 --> 00:15:22,753
Well,
I was married to Larry Pazder.

259
00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,058
We met when I was 13
and he was 17,

260
00:15:27,158 --> 00:15:29,626
and we married in 1961,

261
00:15:29,726 --> 00:15:32,729
when he graduated
from medicine

262
00:15:32,829 --> 00:15:34,798
and I had graduated
from nursing.

263
00:15:37,201 --> 00:15:38,969
Well, he was always lots of fun,

264
00:15:39,070 --> 00:15:42,572
and always very happy
and cheerful,

265
00:15:42,673 --> 00:15:44,242
and very charming.

266
00:15:44,342 --> 00:15:45,642
My mom said,

267
00:15:45,742 --> 00:15:48,046
"he could charm the birds
right out of the trees,"

268
00:15:48,146 --> 00:15:51,115
and he collected friends
like a dog collected fleas.

269
00:15:52,582 --> 00:15:54,685
My dad was really religious

270
00:15:54,785 --> 00:15:57,821
and we went to church
every Sunday.

271
00:15:59,290 --> 00:16:01,359
He was very much, like,

272
00:16:01,458 --> 00:16:04,594
"The Catholic Church
is the only church,"

273
00:16:04,695 --> 00:16:06,797
but with my dad, like...

274
00:16:06,897 --> 00:16:10,500
I was his princess, basically--
"Daddy's little girl".

275
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,271
So I was always really, really
tight with my dad.

276
00:16:13,371 --> 00:16:15,505
Like, I knew
he was a psychiatrist,

277
00:16:15,605 --> 00:16:17,041
and I think

278
00:16:17,141 --> 00:16:19,410
that's one of the reasons why
I really looked up to him

279
00:16:19,509 --> 00:16:21,079
because, like, a psychiatrist
was sort of seen

280
00:16:21,179 --> 00:16:23,081
as somebody that was
kind of all-knowing

281
00:16:23,181 --> 00:16:25,983
and expert in human behaviour
kind of thing.

282
00:16:26,084 --> 00:16:28,152
You're a conventional
medical psychiatrist.

283
00:16:28,252 --> 00:16:29,354
Absolutely.

284
00:16:29,454 --> 00:16:32,556
How would you describe
what was done...

285
00:16:32,656 --> 00:16:35,159
mentally and physically?

286
00:16:35,259 --> 00:16:37,594
It was a very carefully
organized assault on Michelle,

287
00:16:37,694 --> 00:16:39,963
on a physical, emotional,
intellectual,

288
00:16:40,064 --> 00:16:41,932
and finally,
on a spiritual level.

289
00:16:42,033 --> 00:16:43,134
Very organized.

290
00:16:43,234 --> 00:16:44,768
-Very sophisticated.
-Who were these people?

291
00:16:44,868 --> 00:16:46,737
Well,
they're a secret organization.

292
00:16:46,837 --> 00:16:47,938
They're a secret society.

293
00:16:48,039 --> 00:16:50,141
Uh, a secret society
does not reveal

294
00:16:50,241 --> 00:16:53,510
the identity of the people
or the ways of their practices.

295
00:16:53,610 --> 00:16:56,114
I was familiar with this type
of society firsthand

296
00:16:56,214 --> 00:16:57,281
in Africa--

297
00:16:57,382 --> 00:16:58,749
practicing general medicine
there--

298
00:16:58,849 --> 00:17:01,185
and if one of the members
of that society

299
00:17:01,285 --> 00:17:02,487
revealed who he was,

300
00:17:02,619 --> 00:17:03,787
he was killed instantly.

301
00:17:08,426 --> 00:17:11,162
Larry had the camera
when we were in Nigeria--

302
00:17:11,262 --> 00:17:13,164
for taking 16-millimetre.

303
00:17:14,598 --> 00:17:15,899
He liked to record things

304
00:17:15,999 --> 00:17:18,902
and he had all the latest
photographic equipment,

305
00:17:19,003 --> 00:17:21,105
recording equipment--
everything like that.

306
00:17:21,205 --> 00:17:22,539
He loved doing that.

307
00:17:22,639 --> 00:17:23,707
Larry was a character,

308
00:17:23,807 --> 00:17:25,809
and he told
these stories of Africa.

309
00:17:28,179 --> 00:17:31,082
And he had some run-ins
with nuns down there.

310
00:17:31,182 --> 00:17:33,484
Nuns kept telling him
that he was evil,

311
00:17:33,583 --> 00:17:36,521
and he was full of voodoo,
and he should leave.

312
00:17:39,223 --> 00:17:41,059
There were
strange things there.

313
00:17:41,159 --> 00:17:43,261
It was
a completely different culture.

314
00:17:43,361 --> 00:17:45,263
Very, very different.

315
00:17:47,031 --> 00:17:53,071
He did take some pictures
of this group dancing around...

316
00:17:53,171 --> 00:17:57,141
and it was like as if
they were in a possession state.

317
00:17:59,077 --> 00:18:01,878
He went in there
and took those pictures

318
00:18:01,978 --> 00:18:05,183
of two big wooden masks...

319
00:18:05,283 --> 00:18:07,984
and he really liked
that sort of thing.

320
00:18:08,919 --> 00:18:11,621
He seemed to be
very fascinated with it

321
00:18:11,721 --> 00:18:14,591
and just kind of drawn to that.

322
00:18:17,994 --> 00:18:19,729
<i>Well, I had worked in Africa</i>

323
00:18:19,830 --> 00:18:22,366
<i>and done a lot of work</i>
<i>in transcultural psychiatry,</i>

324
00:18:22,467 --> 00:18:24,000
<i>so I was familiar with cults,</i>

325
00:18:24,102 --> 00:18:26,937
<i>and the degree of</i>
<i>sophistication</i>
<i>and organization</i>

326
00:18:27,038 --> 00:18:29,739
<i>that these people</i>
<i>were using on Michelle</i>

327
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,076
<i>told me that they were</i>
<i>a serious cult, indeed.</i>

328
00:18:32,176 --> 00:18:33,478
<i>But they believe</i>
<i>in the other God--</i>

329
00:18:33,578 --> 00:18:34,412
<i>-the Devil, right?</i>
<i>-The Devil.</i>

330
00:18:34,512 --> 00:18:35,912
<i>They worship the Devil</i>

331
00:18:36,013 --> 00:18:38,216
<i>to bring down anything good</i>
<i>that they know about.</i>

332
00:18:38,316 --> 00:18:40,784
<i>How do they do this,</i>
<i>Michelle, what rituals--?</i>

333
00:18:40,884 --> 00:18:42,386
<i>Does the Devil appear?</i>
<i>Is that the idea?</i>

334
00:18:42,487 --> 00:18:44,788
<i>Well, that is one</i>
<i>of their intents, of course,</i>

335
00:18:44,888 --> 00:18:47,158
<i>is to summon a presence.</i>

336
00:18:47,258 --> 00:18:48,459
<i>And you quote</i>

337
00:18:48,559 --> 00:18:49,793
<i>that the Devil always</i>
<i>talks in rhyme?</i>

338
00:18:49,893 --> 00:18:51,395
<i>This is historically a fact</i>

339
00:18:51,496 --> 00:18:52,796
<i>that was brought out to us</i>

340
00:18:52,896 --> 00:18:54,265
<i>by the priest</i>
<i>who we had to call in</i>

341
00:18:54,365 --> 00:18:55,866
<i>to help us understand</i>
<i>what we were experiencing.</i>

342
00:18:55,966 --> 00:18:57,201
<i>"But I'll be back--</i>
<i>you wait and see.</i>

343
00:18:57,301 --> 00:18:59,604
<i>I'll be back</i>
<i>to take the world for me."</i>

344
00:18:59,703 --> 00:19:00,837
<i>You heard this, Michelle?</i>

345
00:19:00,937 --> 00:19:04,674
<i>Yes. It was serious.</i>

346
00:19:05,709 --> 00:19:07,345
Father Guy said

347
00:19:07,445 --> 00:19:10,047
that Michelle could never know

348
00:19:10,148 --> 00:19:12,682
the symbology...

349
00:19:12,782 --> 00:19:14,318
of what she was saying.

350
00:19:15,353 --> 00:19:17,687
Like, mostly, when Satan
comes out of the fire

351
00:19:17,787 --> 00:19:20,024
and he speaks in rhymes.

352
00:19:22,726 --> 00:19:24,895
Father Guy was the priest

353
00:19:24,995 --> 00:19:30,000
at the Catholic Church
that Larry and Michelle went to,

354
00:19:30,101 --> 00:19:32,869
and so he helped
Michelle to understand

355
00:19:32,969 --> 00:19:35,273
what she's seeing
and-- and what's happening

356
00:19:35,373 --> 00:19:37,375
in that reliving process.

357
00:19:38,775 --> 00:19:40,111
<i>"Michelle is saved</i>

358
00:19:40,211 --> 00:19:42,679
<i>by the timely intervention</i>
<i>of the Virgin Mary."</i>

359
00:19:42,779 --> 00:19:45,249
What was that referring to?

360
00:19:45,349 --> 00:19:47,984
I was literally
being frightened to death.

361
00:19:48,085 --> 00:19:50,854
At that moment,
when I think I was dying,

362
00:19:50,954 --> 00:19:53,924
a very soft white light came
and enveloped me,

363
00:19:54,025 --> 00:19:56,460
much like the feeling of being
padded with cotton batting,

364
00:19:56,561 --> 00:19:58,728
and out of that, a woman came
and stood beside me,

365
00:19:58,828 --> 00:20:00,498
and took a hold of my hand,

366
00:20:00,598 --> 00:20:02,766
identified herself
as <i>"Ma Mère",</i>

367
00:20:02,866 --> 00:20:05,036
and basically told me
to hang on,

368
00:20:05,136 --> 00:20:07,438
to help me understand
the situation I was in,

369
00:20:07,538 --> 00:20:09,073
and how to get through it.

370
00:20:09,173 --> 00:20:10,141
<i>-"Ma Mère"?</i>
<i>-Ma Mère.</i>

371
00:20:10,241 --> 00:20:12,443
-The Virgin Mary?
-That's right.

372
00:20:12,543 --> 00:20:13,644
Mother Mary--

373
00:20:13,743 --> 00:20:15,646
they referred to her
as "Ma Mère"--

374
00:20:15,745 --> 00:20:17,315
visited Michelle

375
00:20:17,415 --> 00:20:19,749
and talked to her in French.

376
00:20:19,849 --> 00:20:23,321
She helped
to keep her going.

377
00:20:24,388 --> 00:20:26,023
Father Guy...

378
00:20:26,123 --> 00:20:29,227
felt concerned about it enough

379
00:20:29,327 --> 00:20:31,962
that he took Larry and Michelle
over to his bishop,

380
00:20:32,063 --> 00:20:36,500
which was Bishop Remi De Roo
at the time, and...

381
00:20:36,601 --> 00:20:39,637
Bishop Remi De Roo decided

382
00:20:39,736 --> 00:20:42,273
that her memories
had enough import

383
00:20:42,373 --> 00:20:45,676
that they needed to go to Rome
and tell the Pope this...

384
00:20:45,775 --> 00:20:48,179
and so they did!

385
00:20:52,882 --> 00:20:56,721
Larry and Michelle
and Bishop Remi De Roo

386
00:20:56,853 --> 00:20:58,822
went there,

387
00:20:58,922 --> 00:21:01,325
and they did
get to see the Pope...

388
00:21:02,460 --> 00:21:06,896
...and they did tell him
Michelle's memories.

389
00:21:08,266 --> 00:21:10,134
<i>It sounds</i>
<i>like</i> Dante's Inferno--

390
00:21:10,234 --> 00:21:11,636
<i>hundreds of mutilated corpses.</i>

391
00:21:11,736 --> 00:21:13,304
<i>-Now, you saw this?</i>
<i>-Mm-hmm.</i>

392
00:21:13,404 --> 00:21:15,072
<i>Now, you've placed this</i>
<i>in the hands</i>

393
00:21:15,172 --> 00:21:16,340
<i>-of the Catholic Church?</i>
<i>-That's right.</i>

394
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,009
<i>The entire tapes</i>
<i>were transcribed</i>

395
00:21:18,109 --> 00:21:19,410
<i>with a great deal</i>
<i>of time and effort.</i>

396
00:21:19,510 --> 00:21:21,078
<i>There's some</i>
<i>million and a half words,</i>

397
00:21:21,178 --> 00:21:22,747
<i>and these are presently</i>
<i>in the hands of the Church</i>

398
00:21:22,846 --> 00:21:23,880
<i>for their study.</i>

399
00:21:23,980 --> 00:21:25,383
<i>And so, the Vatican</i>

400
00:21:25,483 --> 00:21:26,651
<i>still has some pronouncements</i>
<i>to make upon this?</i>

401
00:21:26,751 --> 00:21:28,119
<i>-Very much so.</i>
<i>-Yes.</i>

402
00:21:28,219 --> 00:21:29,453
<i>...And they're</i>
<i>taking it very seriously.</i>

403
00:21:46,836 --> 00:21:49,806
It was October, in 1980...

404
00:21:49,906 --> 00:21:51,442
as soon as the book came out,

405
00:21:51,542 --> 00:21:55,146
Larry and Michelle started
this big publicity tour.

406
00:21:56,213 --> 00:21:58,049
She was traveling
all over the place

407
00:21:58,149 --> 00:22:00,184
for this whole book tour.

408
00:22:00,284 --> 00:22:01,619
We didn't think
it would really get

409
00:22:01,719 --> 00:22:02,753
as-- as big as it did,

410
00:22:02,886 --> 00:22:04,155
but then it just--

411
00:22:04,255 --> 00:22:06,990
I don't know how it did,
it just blew up.

412
00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:12,163
I had a ton of articles
from all the papers

413
00:22:12,263 --> 00:22:14,165
and everywhere that they went.

414
00:22:15,499 --> 00:22:17,401
Michelle and Larry
were famous.

415
00:22:17,501 --> 00:22:19,570
They were famous.
Everybody was talking about it.

416
00:22:19,670 --> 00:22:23,140
I mean, in the newspapers
in San Francisco and Houston.

417
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,975
She was in Seattle, Dallas,
and New York.

418
00:22:26,077 --> 00:22:27,645
She was everywhere.

419
00:22:27,745 --> 00:22:31,749
I mean, they just went
right across the whole country,

420
00:22:31,848 --> 00:22:33,883
and when they were
on the book tours,

421
00:22:33,983 --> 00:22:35,786
they stayed in
all these really fancy hotels.

422
00:22:35,885 --> 00:22:37,755
They had limousines.

423
00:22:37,854 --> 00:22:40,091
And I lived in San Francisco

424
00:22:40,191 --> 00:22:42,126
and they came down
on one of her many book tours,

425
00:22:42,226 --> 00:22:45,262
and I mean, we had fun,
we had some wonderful dinners...

426
00:22:46,597 --> 00:22:48,932
...and they wined and dined
whoever they were with.

427
00:22:50,034 --> 00:22:54,538
I know they got $245,000 U.S.
advance for the book.

428
00:22:55,539 --> 00:22:57,308
And I know
it was translated

429
00:22:57,408 --> 00:23:01,045
into a bunch of languages
other than just English,

430
00:23:01,145 --> 00:23:04,014
so I know the book
must've sold a lot of copies.

431
00:23:04,115 --> 00:23:05,683
The book's already
a big bestseller!

432
00:23:05,783 --> 00:23:07,385
Who wrote it?
You wrote it?

433
00:23:07,485 --> 00:23:09,353
-We wrote it together.
-We wrote it together.

434
00:23:09,453 --> 00:23:11,789
But at that time,
I had to have surgery,

435
00:23:11,888 --> 00:23:14,392
and so I had
just come out of surgery,

436
00:23:14,492 --> 00:23:16,594
and I was lying there
and I was really groggy,

437
00:23:16,694 --> 00:23:19,263
and I looked up at the TV,

438
00:23:19,363 --> 00:23:21,065
and all of sudden,
there was my sister,

439
00:23:21,165 --> 00:23:22,666
and I was like,
"Oh, my God."

440
00:23:26,737 --> 00:23:28,372
<i>I, Michelle Smith,</i>

441
00:23:28,472 --> 00:23:30,508
<i>was turned over by my mother</i>
<i>at the age of five</i>

442
00:23:30,608 --> 00:23:33,477
<i>to a group of</i>
<i>practicing Satanists...</i>

443
00:23:33,577 --> 00:23:34,678
<i>who, for the next year,</i>

444
00:23:34,779 --> 00:23:36,347
<i>held me captive</i>
<i>and abused me</i>

445
00:23:36,447 --> 00:23:38,249
<i>both mentally</i>
<i>and physically</i>

446
00:23:38,349 --> 00:23:41,886
<i>as part of a demonic ritual</i>
<i>called the "Feast of the</i>
<i>Beast".</i>

447
00:23:41,985 --> 00:23:43,254
<i>After my ordeal,</i>

448
00:23:43,354 --> 00:23:46,123
<i>I lived normally and happily</i>
<i>until 1976,</i>

449
00:23:46,223 --> 00:23:48,058
<i>when a strange sense of unease</i>

450
00:23:48,159 --> 00:23:50,828
<i>led me to seek</i>
<i>psychiatric help.</i>

451
00:23:50,927 --> 00:23:53,631
<i>All the terrifying memories</i>
<i>that were buried for so long</i>

452
00:23:53,731 --> 00:23:55,099
<i>began to surface</i>

453
00:23:55,199 --> 00:23:57,835
<i>and were recorded</i>
<i>by my doctor, Lawrence Pazder,</i>

454
00:23:57,934 --> 00:24:00,404
<i>and Dr. Pazder and I</i>
<i>have told my story</i>

455
00:24:00,504 --> 00:24:02,106
<i>in a book</i>
<i>called</i> Michelle Remembers.

456
00:24:02,206 --> 00:24:05,142
At first, I thought
I was imagining it--

457
00:24:05,242 --> 00:24:06,710
I was hallucinating,
I thought I was, like,

458
00:24:06,811 --> 00:24:09,613
"Man, that morphine
must be really good."

459
00:24:09,713 --> 00:24:10,915
<i>When you relive these things,</i>

460
00:24:11,015 --> 00:24:13,684
was this just in your head,
the reliving?

461
00:24:13,784 --> 00:24:14,919
No, this took place--

462
00:24:15,019 --> 00:24:16,420
Oh, the reliving itself?

463
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:18,722
Yes. This, took--
This was in my head.

464
00:24:18,823 --> 00:24:20,825
It was just too strange...

465
00:24:20,925 --> 00:24:24,261
and she told the whole story.

466
00:24:24,361 --> 00:24:26,197
So who's the person that was
turned over to a Satanic cult

467
00:24:26,297 --> 00:24:27,465
and had written a book?

468
00:24:27,565 --> 00:24:28,666
The votes are all in--

469
00:24:28,766 --> 00:24:30,267
now, we're gonna find out
which of these ladies,

470
00:24:30,367 --> 00:24:32,336
in fact, did survive
this, uh, demonic, uh, uh...

471
00:24:32,436 --> 00:24:34,205
possession, and we're gonna--
who better to pick her out

472
00:24:34,305 --> 00:24:37,174
than the co-author of her book,
Dr. Lawrence Pazder?

473
00:24:37,274 --> 00:24:38,676
Doctor, come down
and pick out Michelle,

474
00:24:38,776 --> 00:24:39,976
if you would, please.

475
00:24:44,981 --> 00:24:47,017
And of course, she stood up,

476
00:24:47,117 --> 00:24:48,919
and I was like,
"I can't believe this."

477
00:24:51,388 --> 00:24:52,623
I think I called her
and I said,

478
00:24:52,723 --> 00:24:56,861
"I can't believe I just saw you
on TV."

479
00:24:56,961 --> 00:24:58,128
Can you squeeze in there?

480
00:24:58,229 --> 00:24:59,129
-Are you comfortable?
-Yes, indeed.

481
00:24:59,230 --> 00:25:00,664
Um, Doctor, before we go on,

482
00:25:00,764 --> 00:25:03,133
I'd like to ask, is there
any misinformation that emerged

483
00:25:03,234 --> 00:25:05,436
from this particular, uh, spot
that you'd like to clear up?

484
00:25:05,536 --> 00:25:06,804
Well, one of
the important things

485
00:25:06,904 --> 00:25:08,038
is the, uh, journey
to the Vatican

486
00:25:08,138 --> 00:25:09,406
was to bring the information

487
00:25:09,507 --> 00:25:11,642
Michelle had seen
some special presences--

488
00:25:11,742 --> 00:25:13,611
<i>Ma Mère,</i> who is thought
to be the mother of God.

489
00:25:13,711 --> 00:25:15,813
The book came out in 1980,

490
00:25:15,913 --> 00:25:18,349
and I heard about it
almost immediately

491
00:25:18,449 --> 00:25:20,651
because I was
the first Wiccan priest

492
00:25:20,751 --> 00:25:22,219
in law enforcement.

493
00:25:23,854 --> 00:25:26,624
It was
a very, very popular book--

494
00:25:26,724 --> 00:25:28,058
it still is, in some circles--

495
00:25:28,158 --> 00:25:30,528
and she's
all over North America

496
00:25:30,628 --> 00:25:32,796
in years following
the publishing of that book--

497
00:25:32,897 --> 00:25:34,298
in front of police audiences,

498
00:25:34,398 --> 00:25:35,766
in front of church audiences,

499
00:25:35,866 --> 00:25:37,568
in front of
community audiences...

500
00:25:37,668 --> 00:25:40,504
and they're both
being seen as an expert.

501
00:25:40,604 --> 00:25:42,973
<i>I knew</i>
<i>that it needed to be shared.</i>

502
00:25:43,073 --> 00:25:47,111
It's the average person that,
with this kind of information,

503
00:25:47,211 --> 00:25:49,346
maybe we can make
some wiser decisions

504
00:25:49,446 --> 00:25:51,081
about the kinds of things
that go on.

505
00:25:51,181 --> 00:25:53,217
Maybe we won't get
so easily pulled into cults.

506
00:25:53,317 --> 00:25:54,652
She was everywhere.

507
00:25:54,752 --> 00:25:57,254
They were plugging everything.

508
00:25:58,289 --> 00:26:01,191
That's what they did for...
at least two years.

509
00:26:03,227 --> 00:26:06,430
And he was all of a sudden
being asked to come and talk

510
00:26:06,530 --> 00:26:10,568
because, apparently,
now he was the guru of...

511
00:26:10,668 --> 00:26:14,238
being able to decipher
when a child has been abused.

512
00:26:15,573 --> 00:26:17,708
So that's when they started
the speaking tours

513
00:26:17,808 --> 00:26:20,210
for the psychiatric conventions.

514
00:26:21,111 --> 00:26:23,280
In 1981,

515
00:26:23,380 --> 00:26:25,516
there was an American
Psychiatric Association

516
00:26:25,616 --> 00:26:27,052
annual meeting,

517
00:26:27,151 --> 00:26:29,153
and Pazder talked about

518
00:26:29,253 --> 00:26:31,355
the content
of <i>Michelle Remembers,</i>

519
00:26:31,455 --> 00:26:34,858
and he started generalizing
that there was this phenomenon,

520
00:26:34,959 --> 00:26:37,461
you know, beyond
that particular story--

521
00:26:37,561 --> 00:26:40,397
that there was a phenomenon
called "Satanic ritual abuse."

522
00:26:45,102 --> 00:26:46,937
"Satanic ritual abuse"

523
00:26:47,038 --> 00:26:49,873
was a theory
that people took as a fact,

524
00:26:49,974 --> 00:26:51,442
that there's
a Satanic conspiracy

525
00:26:51,542 --> 00:26:55,713
and there are children
who are kidnapped or stolen,

526
00:26:55,813 --> 00:26:57,848
and sacrificed.

527
00:26:57,948 --> 00:26:59,050
Children are involved

528
00:26:59,149 --> 00:27:01,619
in graveyards and crematoriums,

529
00:27:01,719 --> 00:27:02,886
in funeral parlours

530
00:27:02,987 --> 00:27:04,688
because one of
the primary focuses

531
00:27:04,788 --> 00:27:06,490
of these people
is death.

532
00:27:06,590 --> 00:27:09,460
Everything is attempted
to be destroyed and killed

533
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,862
in that child,
and in society,

534
00:27:11,962 --> 00:27:13,263
everything of goodness.

535
00:27:28,912 --> 00:27:30,214
I'm Gordon Coulter.

536
00:27:30,314 --> 00:27:31,448
For many years,

537
00:27:31,548 --> 00:27:34,052
I served as
a law enforcement officer.

538
00:27:34,151 --> 00:27:36,620
Today, it's my privilege
to host this program

539
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,423
on a little-known area
in law enforcement.

540
00:27:39,523 --> 00:27:43,394
It's the area of Satanic cults.

541
00:27:43,494 --> 00:27:45,295
People would come in
and they'd be paid

542
00:27:45,396 --> 00:27:47,564
to give these seminars
to the police,

543
00:27:47,665 --> 00:27:50,968
or particularly
the mental health professions.

544
00:27:51,069 --> 00:27:53,237
There were just
all kinds of seminars,

545
00:27:53,337 --> 00:27:55,305
and, you know,
the problem was

546
00:27:55,406 --> 00:27:57,075
that you could
get credits for these

547
00:27:57,174 --> 00:27:58,642
and they'd get
their little certificate.

548
00:27:58,742 --> 00:28:01,112
Now they know
all about Satanic ritual abuse.

549
00:28:01,211 --> 00:28:02,413
<i>A few months ago,</i>

550
00:28:02,513 --> 00:28:04,082
<i>Chicago played host</i>
<i>to a conference</i>

551
00:28:04,181 --> 00:28:06,084
<i>featuring ritual abuse.</i>

552
00:28:06,183 --> 00:28:07,851
One thing that's
super-important to remember,

553
00:28:07,951 --> 00:28:09,054
I think the field is forgetting,

554
00:28:09,154 --> 00:28:10,754
is these people
come from cults.

555
00:28:10,854 --> 00:28:12,589
<i>Like-minded social workers</i>

556
00:28:12,690 --> 00:28:14,491
<i>and therapists</i>
<i>eagerly noted</i>

557
00:28:14,591 --> 00:28:16,960
<i>the latest</i>
<i>on the Satanic threat.</i>

558
00:28:17,062 --> 00:28:20,297
<i>Police are also being taught</i>
<i>how to "spot Satan".</i>

559
00:28:20,397 --> 00:28:23,168
I, um, do lectures
throughout the country.

560
00:28:23,267 --> 00:28:24,802
In fact, I was in Canada.

561
00:28:24,902 --> 00:28:26,336
Did a presentation, uh,

562
00:28:26,437 --> 00:28:30,407
for about 150 multi-agency
personnel up there.

563
00:28:30,507 --> 00:28:32,342
We called them
"Cops for Christ"--

564
00:28:32,443 --> 00:28:34,578
people who had
their own agenda,

565
00:28:34,678 --> 00:28:37,514
and they created these seminars
and these materials

566
00:28:37,614 --> 00:28:43,854
and presented as actual, uh,
scientific, confirmed fact.

567
00:28:44,988 --> 00:28:49,027
There was an enormous
amount of time spent

568
00:28:49,127 --> 00:28:50,828
dragging police
into conferences

569
00:28:50,928 --> 00:28:53,664
to be taught
how to investigate this stuff.

570
00:28:54,765 --> 00:28:57,468
All of that
can be directly traced back

571
00:28:57,568 --> 00:29:00,471
to the Pazders' book...
and others, you know?

572
00:29:00,571 --> 00:29:02,873
That's what fuelled that.

573
00:29:02,973 --> 00:29:04,641
That's what made that happen.

574
00:29:05,843 --> 00:29:08,278
Pazder said
that it was very widespread,

575
00:29:08,378 --> 00:29:10,981
and he pretty much validated
that claim--

576
00:29:11,082 --> 00:29:15,086
that Satanic ritual abuse
is a real concern. You know?

577
00:29:15,186 --> 00:29:16,987
People panic
over this stuff.

578
00:29:19,523 --> 00:29:21,892
Michelle and Larry
were always talking all the time

579
00:29:21,992 --> 00:29:23,427
of Victoria,
in the church,

580
00:29:23,527 --> 00:29:26,131
explaining Satanic cults...

581
00:29:26,231 --> 00:29:29,399
and that's when someone said

582
00:29:29,500 --> 00:29:31,102
that the child was gonna
be stolen from the hospital,

583
00:29:31,202 --> 00:29:32,503
and it caused major havoc!

584
00:29:32,603 --> 00:29:35,773
<i>We stepped up our extra</i>
<i>security staff itself,</i>

585
00:29:35,873 --> 00:29:37,441
<i>and we've taken</i>
<i>other certain precautions</i>

586
00:29:37,541 --> 00:29:40,044
<i>within the hospital</i>
<i>that I can't discuss.</i>

587
00:29:40,145 --> 00:29:41,079
It was in the paper

588
00:29:41,179 --> 00:29:42,412
that Satanists

589
00:29:42,513 --> 00:29:45,315
were going to take a baby
from the nursery.

590
00:29:45,415 --> 00:29:47,118
People were really alarmed.

591
00:29:47,218 --> 00:29:48,485
They were really upset.

592
00:29:48,585 --> 00:29:50,088
<i>The patrol guards</i>
<i>seem to be</i>

593
00:29:50,188 --> 00:29:52,090
wandering around
the halls constantly.

594
00:29:52,190 --> 00:29:55,392
<i>I've been up at times</i>
<i>during the night and seen them.</i>

595
00:29:55,492 --> 00:29:56,760
<i>Dr. Lawrence Pazder,</i>

596
00:29:56,860 --> 00:29:58,295
<i>who works out of</i>
<i>this Victoria medical building,</i>

597
00:29:58,395 --> 00:30:00,330
<i>expressed concern</i>
<i>the Satanists' threat</i>

598
00:30:00,430 --> 00:30:01,799
<i>hadn't been checked</i>
<i>thoroughly enough,</i>

599
00:30:01,899 --> 00:30:04,068
<i>and denied any connection</i>
<i>between it and his book,</i>

600
00:30:04,169 --> 00:30:06,503
<i>the bestseller,</i>
Michelle Remembers.

601
00:30:06,603 --> 00:30:08,239
People got caught up in it.

602
00:30:08,338 --> 00:30:10,741
It was like a snowball,
you know?

603
00:30:10,841 --> 00:30:13,510
The more interest it got,
the bigger it got,

604
00:30:13,610 --> 00:30:15,612
and it was just...
it was a hot topic.

605
00:30:21,351 --> 00:30:23,821
Up until 1983,

606
00:30:23,921 --> 00:30:27,058
I was not aware of
any of these cases...

607
00:30:27,158 --> 00:30:29,326
and then it just began to grow

608
00:30:29,426 --> 00:30:30,961
and grow and grow,

609
00:30:31,062 --> 00:30:34,398
and I kept hearing about
more and more of these cases.

610
00:30:34,498 --> 00:30:36,301
I'd say,
"Man, this is some weird stuff.

611
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:37,734
This is--

612
00:30:37,835 --> 00:30:40,004
This is some really serious,
heavy-duty stuff here."

613
00:30:40,104 --> 00:30:41,438
I didn't know what to call it!

614
00:30:41,538 --> 00:30:44,775
I didn't say, "Wow!
That's Satanic ritual abuse."

615
00:30:44,875 --> 00:30:46,343
I just heard people

616
00:30:46,443 --> 00:30:48,612
start to refer
to these kinds of cases

617
00:30:48,712 --> 00:30:50,848
as "Satanic ritual abuse..."

618
00:30:50,948 --> 00:30:53,450
and it touched a nerve.

619
00:30:53,550 --> 00:30:54,985
"Satanic! Oh!" Those--

620
00:30:55,086 --> 00:30:56,620
"I knew those people were
involved in all this stuff!"

621
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:58,189
And ritual?
"Oh, yeah, what's that?

622
00:30:58,289 --> 00:31:00,258
That sounds sinister and evil!"

623
00:31:00,357 --> 00:31:02,060
<i>And in Quantico, Virginia,</i>

624
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,796
<i>Special Agent Kenneth Lanning</i>
<i>of the FBI...</i>

625
00:31:05,896 --> 00:31:08,565
I became
an FBI agent in 1970,

626
00:31:08,665 --> 00:31:11,501
and I was a regular FBI agent
for ten years.

627
00:31:11,602 --> 00:31:12,803
Eventually, I was assigned

628
00:31:12,903 --> 00:31:15,739
to the FBI
Behavioral Science Unit,

629
00:31:15,839 --> 00:31:18,642
and I became the Bureau's
expert on Satanism,

630
00:31:18,742 --> 00:31:21,179
the occult, cults--
the whole package.

631
00:31:21,279 --> 00:31:22,880
Special Agent Lanning,

632
00:31:22,980 --> 00:31:24,948
I'm going to ask you
to deal first with the belief,

633
00:31:25,049 --> 00:31:26,717
which is quite widespread
out there now,

634
00:31:26,817 --> 00:31:28,852
that there are just
too many people

635
00:31:28,952 --> 00:31:31,122
telling too many stories
that all sound the same

636
00:31:31,222 --> 00:31:32,789
for this not to be true.

637
00:31:32,890 --> 00:31:35,425
Well, it's very interesting
that that argument--

638
00:31:35,525 --> 00:31:36,760
the fact that there's
so many people

639
00:31:36,860 --> 00:31:39,364
telling the same story,
so often...

640
00:31:39,463 --> 00:31:42,267
As I began to respond
to these cases,

641
00:31:42,367 --> 00:31:45,136
I started out with an open mind,

642
00:31:45,236 --> 00:31:47,437
and I kinda thought
that this had to be going on,

643
00:31:47,537 --> 00:31:49,240
because why would
these people be saying that

644
00:31:49,340 --> 00:31:50,507
if it didn't happen?

645
00:31:50,607 --> 00:31:53,610
Pretty soon,
somebody mentions Dr. Pazder

646
00:31:53,710 --> 00:31:55,646
and the book,
<i>Michelle Remembers</i> ,

647
00:31:55,746 --> 00:31:59,050
so I start to hear them
getting involved...

648
00:31:59,150 --> 00:32:00,884
and the number of cases

649
00:32:00,984 --> 00:32:03,553
that they were consulting on
in this area

650
00:32:03,654 --> 00:32:05,123
just began to grow...

651
00:32:06,590 --> 00:32:09,193
...and then somebody
called me up and told me

652
00:32:09,294 --> 00:32:11,561
about the McMartin
daycare case.

653
00:32:12,529 --> 00:32:14,765
The McMartin case

654
00:32:14,865 --> 00:32:18,502
was one of these preschool-type
of cases,

655
00:32:18,602 --> 00:32:19,770
the daycare cases,

656
00:32:19,870 --> 00:32:22,273
and all of these kids
were making--

657
00:32:22,373 --> 00:32:24,574
you know, ended up
making these accusations

658
00:32:24,675 --> 00:32:26,443
about things
that supposedly happened

659
00:32:26,543 --> 00:32:30,714
at a preschool
in Manhattan Beach, California.

660
00:32:32,150 --> 00:32:34,385
<i>41 youngsters</i>
<i>over a six-year period</i>

661
00:32:34,484 --> 00:32:36,321
<i>had not just been</i>
<i>sexually molested,</i>

662
00:32:36,421 --> 00:32:37,721
<i>but had also been forced</i>

663
00:32:37,821 --> 00:32:39,856
<i>to participate</i>
<i>in Satanic rites.</i>

664
00:32:39,957 --> 00:32:42,492
There were also charges that,
to keep the children quiet,

665
00:32:42,592 --> 00:32:45,396
animals had been mutilated
before their eyes.

666
00:32:45,495 --> 00:32:47,031
They're remembering
being abused

667
00:32:47,131 --> 00:32:48,366
and Satanic rituals.

668
00:32:48,465 --> 00:32:49,967
They're remembering

669
00:32:50,068 --> 00:32:53,371
having to...
kill animals and breed babies,

670
00:32:53,470 --> 00:32:54,905
and kill those babies,

671
00:32:55,006 --> 00:32:56,140
and drink blood,

672
00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,944
and all kinds of pretty wild
and bizarre things.

673
00:33:01,045 --> 00:33:02,879
<i>The defendants</i>
<i>faced more than 300 counts</i>

674
00:33:02,980 --> 00:33:05,615
<i>of sodomy, rape,</i>
<i>and oral copulation.</i>

675
00:33:05,716 --> 00:33:07,751
<i>The evidence of abuse</i>
<i>was largely developed</i>

676
00:33:07,851 --> 00:33:09,519
<i>by social worker</i>
<i>Kee MacFarlane,</i>

677
00:33:09,619 --> 00:33:11,422
<i>who used puppets</i>
<i>to get the children--</i>

678
00:33:11,555 --> 00:33:13,391
<i>who were between the ages</i>
<i>of two and six--</i>

679
00:33:13,490 --> 00:33:15,093
<i>to reveal what had happened.</i>

680
00:33:15,193 --> 00:33:17,362
"Children's
Institute International,"

681
00:33:17,462 --> 00:33:19,629
which was a group
that was involved

682
00:33:19,730 --> 00:33:22,966
in trying to get
disclosures from children

683
00:33:23,067 --> 00:33:25,869
from the McMartin
daycare case...

684
00:33:25,969 --> 00:33:29,240
decided to bring down
Lawrence and Michelle

685
00:33:29,340 --> 00:33:30,640
as "consultants"

686
00:33:30,741 --> 00:33:32,410
to-- to assist in the process.

687
00:33:32,509 --> 00:33:35,645
So they were directly involved
in getting these disclosures

688
00:33:35,746 --> 00:33:37,914
and "recovering" memories.

689
00:33:38,016 --> 00:33:40,717
Michelle Smith, what are
the goals of these cults?

690
00:33:40,817 --> 00:33:43,920
They want to possess
the soul of the child.

691
00:33:44,022 --> 00:33:46,656
It's not just they want
to capture them physically, um,

692
00:33:46,757 --> 00:33:48,692
but they want to have
the child theirs.

693
00:33:48,792 --> 00:33:50,294
And these are people
whose families

694
00:33:50,395 --> 00:33:51,728
are either involved
in these cults

695
00:33:51,828 --> 00:33:53,398
or who, because of you,
because of some connection,

696
00:33:53,498 --> 00:33:55,266
fell into their hands?

697
00:33:55,366 --> 00:33:59,504
Or through such, um, vehicles
as daycare centers,

698
00:33:59,603 --> 00:34:01,905
where the chil--
they have access to the child.

699
00:34:02,006 --> 00:34:03,707
They went down to the States

700
00:34:03,807 --> 00:34:06,344
for the McMartin trial...

701
00:34:06,444 --> 00:34:10,281
and I know Michelle spent
a lot of time with the kids

702
00:34:10,381 --> 00:34:12,649
because that's what
she would talk to me about,

703
00:34:12,749 --> 00:34:16,487
was the kids,
and how she related to the kids,

704
00:34:16,586 --> 00:34:21,325
and helped the kids
remembering, reliving...

705
00:34:21,426 --> 00:34:23,593
what had happened to them.

706
00:34:23,693 --> 00:34:24,961
<i>The mother of two children,</i>

707
00:34:25,063 --> 00:34:27,265
<i>who admitted</i>
<i>that they were severely abused</i>

708
00:34:27,365 --> 00:34:29,167
<i>while at the McMartin school,</i>

709
00:34:29,267 --> 00:34:31,102
<i>agreed to talk to us on camera.</i>

710
00:34:31,202 --> 00:34:33,637
<i>What actually happened</i>
<i>to your two children?</i>

711
00:34:33,737 --> 00:34:35,739
They were tied up,
sodomized,

712
00:34:35,839 --> 00:34:38,476
um, they were taken
off the premises.

713
00:34:38,575 --> 00:34:40,677
They were threatened...

714
00:34:40,777 --> 00:34:43,347
by watching animals
being slaughtered.

715
00:34:43,448 --> 00:34:46,017
Uh, they were sold
for prostitution.

716
00:34:46,117 --> 00:34:47,818
People wanted to validate

717
00:34:47,918 --> 00:34:49,253
what children were saying,

718
00:34:49,353 --> 00:34:50,821
and the problem is,

719
00:34:50,921 --> 00:34:54,758
if you can't believe
everything that the child says,

720
00:34:54,858 --> 00:34:56,626
what can you believe?

721
00:34:56,726 --> 00:34:59,163
How do you decide what happened
and what didn't happen,

722
00:34:59,263 --> 00:35:00,531
what might have happened?

723
00:35:00,630 --> 00:35:02,632
Maybe the child
misremembered it.

724
00:35:02,732 --> 00:35:03,800
Maybe it's distorted.

725
00:35:03,900 --> 00:35:05,669
Maybe the child
didn't understand.

726
00:35:05,769 --> 00:35:08,339
But I would estimate that,
as time went on,

727
00:35:08,439 --> 00:35:09,806
during that time,

728
00:35:09,906 --> 00:35:12,243
from '83
to maybe the late '80s,

729
00:35:12,343 --> 00:35:15,379
I consulted on hundreds
and hundreds of these cases.

730
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:16,947
How alarmist would you be

731
00:35:17,048 --> 00:35:19,250
about how we should
be dealing with this problem

732
00:35:19,350 --> 00:35:20,717
and how widespread it is?

733
00:35:20,817 --> 00:35:22,386
It's widespread.

734
00:35:22,487 --> 00:35:23,820
It's a--
It's across North America.

735
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:25,622
We've had reports of it in--
in every province

736
00:35:25,722 --> 00:35:27,225
and in every state.

737
00:35:27,325 --> 00:35:30,361
It isn't, uh, just in California
or just on the West Coast here.

738
00:35:32,063 --> 00:35:33,930
As the daycare cases erupted,

739
00:35:34,031 --> 00:35:38,069
which started
in about '83, '84...

740
00:35:38,169 --> 00:35:39,669
there were police

741
00:35:39,769 --> 00:35:41,139
who were investigating
these cases,

742
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,808
and prosecutors who were
deciding to take them to trial,

743
00:35:44,908 --> 00:35:47,545
who were using
<i>Michelle Remembers</i>

744
00:35:47,644 --> 00:35:50,814
as a kind of a checklist
to develop cases...

745
00:35:50,914 --> 00:35:53,151
which meant that they would
try to come up with questions

746
00:35:53,251 --> 00:35:54,751
based on
what had happened to Michelle

747
00:35:54,851 --> 00:35:56,387
to ask the children.

748
00:36:00,458 --> 00:36:03,127
<i>Michelle Remembers</i>
actually led to this panic

749
00:36:03,227 --> 00:36:06,730
over children
being endangered.

750
00:36:06,830 --> 00:36:08,299
People panic over this stuff.

751
00:36:08,399 --> 00:36:09,766
They panic

752
00:36:09,866 --> 00:36:11,668
because they think that
this is the end of the world.

753
00:36:12,702 --> 00:36:14,605
It's known as
the "Satanic Panic"

754
00:36:14,704 --> 00:36:16,873
from the 1980s and '90s,

755
00:36:16,973 --> 00:36:20,677
and this stuff just spreads
like wildfire!

756
00:36:20,777 --> 00:36:23,147
And, as an FBI agent,

757
00:36:23,247 --> 00:36:24,315
I could step back,

758
00:36:24,415 --> 00:36:27,351
and see cases from
all over the United States

759
00:36:27,451 --> 00:36:28,653
and, eventually,

760
00:36:28,752 --> 00:36:30,087
all over the Western
industrialized world.

761
00:36:33,191 --> 00:36:35,892
Police officers
all over North America

762
00:36:35,992 --> 00:36:37,662
went out looking for this stuff

763
00:36:37,761 --> 00:36:39,030
and prosecuted people.

764
00:36:40,730 --> 00:36:43,201
The Satanic Panic
was picking up steam

765
00:36:43,301 --> 00:36:47,004
and it started to spread out
and affect more people.

766
00:36:48,805 --> 00:36:51,275
It just... went viral.

767
00:36:51,375 --> 00:36:54,811
And all of this was started
by this book.

768
00:37:09,859 --> 00:37:11,028
Victoria was a great city.

769
00:37:11,128 --> 00:37:14,831
Growing up here
was so much fun.

770
00:37:14,931 --> 00:37:16,567
It was happy.

771
00:37:16,667 --> 00:37:17,801
It was...
it was fabulous.

772
00:37:17,901 --> 00:37:19,370
I was really lucky.

773
00:37:21,339 --> 00:37:23,907
You know, my dad had
a great sense of humour.

774
00:37:24,008 --> 00:37:26,711
He also had, like,
a bit of a twinkle in his eye,

775
00:37:26,810 --> 00:37:28,878
and sometimes, at Christmas,

776
00:37:28,979 --> 00:37:30,814
all the family would come over,

777
00:37:30,914 --> 00:37:32,183
and there's a ukulele.

778
00:37:32,283 --> 00:37:35,086
My dad would play
and my mom would sing and...

779
00:37:35,186 --> 00:37:39,056
they were just so happy,
singing along together.

780
00:37:42,159 --> 00:37:43,394
Those were good memories...

781
00:37:45,196 --> 00:37:47,964
...but that was before the book.

782
00:37:50,434 --> 00:37:53,437
Before
he started on this book...

783
00:37:53,537 --> 00:37:55,805
I was at home,

784
00:37:55,905 --> 00:37:58,009
and I was sitting there,
watching that show--

785
00:37:58,109 --> 00:37:59,710
<i>Sybil</i> , was on TV.

786
00:37:59,809 --> 00:38:02,046
Sybil...

787
00:38:02,146 --> 00:38:03,414
Oh...

788
00:38:03,514 --> 00:38:05,349
please don't touch me.

789
00:38:05,449 --> 00:38:06,850
It hurts.

790
00:38:06,950 --> 00:38:09,720
<i>Sybil</i> is about
a woman who goes into therapy,

791
00:38:09,819 --> 00:38:12,922
and she ends up
in extreme therapy,

792
00:38:13,024 --> 00:38:14,759
like, five times a week,

793
00:38:14,858 --> 00:38:17,061
and she gradually remembers

794
00:38:17,161 --> 00:38:20,598
really horrific, sadistic
sexual abuse and torture

795
00:38:20,698 --> 00:38:22,366
by her mother.

796
00:38:22,466 --> 00:38:25,136
The book came out in 1973,

797
00:38:25,236 --> 00:38:29,040
and it was just, like,
this instant wild success,

798
00:38:29,140 --> 00:38:32,543
and then it was made into
a made-for-TV movie in 1976,

799
00:38:32,643 --> 00:38:34,245
and I think about, like,

800
00:38:34,345 --> 00:38:37,548
one-fifth of the American
population watched that.

801
00:38:38,649 --> 00:38:41,185
He said,
"I want to do the same thing,"

802
00:38:41,285 --> 00:38:44,588
and he said, "I don't want to be
just an ordinary psychiatrist.

803
00:38:44,689 --> 00:38:46,557
I want to be famous,"

804
00:38:46,657 --> 00:38:49,393
and he said, "I've got
a patient just like that,"

805
00:38:49,493 --> 00:38:51,995
and that's when he phoned her
and gave her the phone number,

806
00:38:52,096 --> 00:38:53,464
and that's when it started.

807
00:38:53,564 --> 00:38:54,831
It just took off from there.

808
00:38:56,167 --> 00:39:00,271
The phone started
ringing in our house constantly,

809
00:39:00,371 --> 00:39:02,972
and it was usually
really late at night.

810
00:39:03,074 --> 00:39:05,409
You know, to have
a patient calling all the time

811
00:39:05,509 --> 00:39:06,644
was just unusual.

812
00:39:06,744 --> 00:39:08,279
No patient
had ever called before.

813
00:39:09,447 --> 00:39:10,448
When she got the phone number,

814
00:39:10,548 --> 00:39:11,915
she didn't stop phoning.

815
00:39:12,016 --> 00:39:14,318
She'd phone several times a day.

816
00:39:14,418 --> 00:39:18,189
When he came in the door,
I would watch the clock...

817
00:39:18,289 --> 00:39:21,759
and sometimes,
it would get to maybe about

818
00:39:21,858 --> 00:39:23,527
two minutes,
three minutes,

819
00:39:23,627 --> 00:39:25,396
and then
the phone would ring.

820
00:39:26,797 --> 00:39:28,032
And so I thought,

821
00:39:28,132 --> 00:39:31,102
if we went to Mexico
for Christmas,

822
00:39:31,202 --> 00:39:33,704
that he'd be able
to distance himself

823
00:39:33,804 --> 00:39:35,939
in a more realistic way,

824
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,075
but she just phoned
and phoned

825
00:39:38,175 --> 00:39:40,344
and phoned
and phoned and phoned,

826
00:39:40,444 --> 00:39:42,213
and he did believe her.

827
00:39:42,313 --> 00:39:43,848
There's no two ways about it.

828
00:39:43,947 --> 00:39:45,549
He believed everything.

829
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,256
The big change
was that trip,

830
00:39:52,356 --> 00:39:54,792
and when they came back,
I mean, all hell broke loose.

831
00:39:54,891 --> 00:39:57,828
Michelle was, like, showing up
at all these different things

832
00:39:57,927 --> 00:40:00,364
behind us,
and following us and...

833
00:40:00,464 --> 00:40:03,033
it was frightening.

834
00:40:03,134 --> 00:40:05,102
We went to Edmonton
to a wedding

835
00:40:05,202 --> 00:40:07,638
and she followed us
all the way,

836
00:40:07,738 --> 00:40:08,905
and I cried all the way,

837
00:40:09,006 --> 00:40:11,275
because there she was,
right behind us.

838
00:40:12,610 --> 00:40:14,378
His patient was everywhere.

839
00:40:33,864 --> 00:40:35,999
We thought this was the story

840
00:40:36,100 --> 00:40:38,602
that she used
to get his full attention.

841
00:40:39,570 --> 00:40:41,672
It had him wrapped
around her finger.

842
00:40:41,772 --> 00:40:43,107
No question.

843
00:40:43,207 --> 00:40:45,242
You know, she was always there,

844
00:40:45,342 --> 00:40:47,977
always reaching
into our house with the phone,

845
00:40:48,078 --> 00:40:50,281
showing up
at the doorstep.

846
00:40:50,381 --> 00:40:55,219
That was the Michelle we knew
before the book.

847
00:40:55,319 --> 00:40:58,456
To us, she was like...
this stalker.

848
00:40:59,423 --> 00:41:01,958
Although, I think he saw her
differently than we did.

849
00:41:02,059 --> 00:41:03,761
Definitely.

850
00:41:03,861 --> 00:41:06,664
I felt that she was...

851
00:41:06,764 --> 00:41:08,632
deeply in love with him.

852
00:41:09,767 --> 00:41:13,037
She was very protective of him,

853
00:41:13,137 --> 00:41:15,272
and, you know...

854
00:41:15,372 --> 00:41:17,808
all of us that--
that did the typing,

855
00:41:17,908 --> 00:41:19,877
we all felt the same way,

856
00:41:19,976 --> 00:41:23,247
that she just wanted Larry
to herself.

857
00:41:24,281 --> 00:41:27,585
Essentially, this has become
a relationship where...

858
00:41:27,685 --> 00:41:29,320
the boundaries

859
00:41:29,420 --> 00:41:31,889
that exist
between doctor and patient

860
00:41:32,022 --> 00:41:33,457
are no longer there,

861
00:41:33,557 --> 00:41:39,663
and Dr. Pazder and Michelle
are first holding hands.

862
00:41:39,763 --> 00:41:44,301
He's then sometimes placing
a hand on top of her head,

863
00:41:44,401 --> 00:41:46,370
and gradually they move
from the couch

864
00:41:46,470 --> 00:41:48,272
to a rubber mat
he has on the floor

865
00:41:48,372 --> 00:41:51,809
so that they can both lie
on the floor together,

866
00:41:51,909 --> 00:41:54,745
their bodies touching,

867
00:41:54,845 --> 00:41:57,348
and according to this book,

868
00:41:57,448 --> 00:42:00,217
this is "very necessary"
for the therapeutic experience.

869
00:42:00,317 --> 00:42:02,653
She's experiencing
so much pain,

870
00:42:02,753 --> 00:42:04,288
she's in so much distress,

871
00:42:04,388 --> 00:42:07,024
that she needs to be held

872
00:42:07,124 --> 00:42:09,894
in order
to continue remembering.

873
00:42:14,031 --> 00:42:16,100
You know,
around that time,

874
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,503
my dad started sort of
disappearing quite a bit,

875
00:42:19,603 --> 00:42:23,073
and we didn't know
where he was...

876
00:42:24,174 --> 00:42:26,510
...and my mom
didn't know where he was.

877
00:42:29,179 --> 00:42:30,648
I didn't...

878
00:42:30,748 --> 00:42:34,451
I just knew all these weird
things were going on, and, uh...

879
00:42:34,552 --> 00:42:38,322
he was making a lot of effort
to keep it secret.

880
00:42:39,490 --> 00:42:42,259
So I started asking around,

881
00:42:42,359 --> 00:42:45,729
and I found out Father Guy
was involved with it.

882
00:42:47,364 --> 00:42:50,200
Larry had all tape recorders
and all kinds of equipment,

883
00:42:50,301 --> 00:42:53,837
so I phoned
and recorded Father Guy.

884
00:43:47,625 --> 00:43:49,226
Father Guy said

885
00:43:49,326 --> 00:43:51,395
many people
are going to be killed,

886
00:43:51,495 --> 00:43:54,065
and many people
are going to be saved, and...

887
00:43:54,164 --> 00:43:58,135
you know, there was
something wrong up there.

888
00:43:59,269 --> 00:44:00,704
And Father Guy told me

889
00:44:00,804 --> 00:44:04,341
that they were gonna make
a million dollars from the book

890
00:44:04,441 --> 00:44:06,910
and there was
a lot of money involved.

891
00:44:08,079 --> 00:44:11,515
So we went to see
the Bishop Remi De Roo,

892
00:44:11,615 --> 00:44:14,685
and said, you know,
"Stop supporting this."

893
00:44:15,886 --> 00:44:18,689
But I didn't realize
he went to Rome with him.

894
00:44:19,690 --> 00:44:23,961
I didn't realize
that he was so mixed up in it

895
00:44:24,062 --> 00:44:25,663
until the book came out,

896
00:44:25,763 --> 00:44:29,199
but they obviously were
all believing all of this.

897
00:44:30,267 --> 00:44:32,569
They were all for it...

898
00:44:32,670 --> 00:44:36,840
but I can't understand
why anybody would believe it.

899
00:44:38,043 --> 00:44:43,213
I don't know why these people
would follow such a stupid book.

900
00:44:44,214 --> 00:44:45,215
One of
the first things that came out

901
00:44:45,315 --> 00:44:46,383
after the book came out

902
00:44:46,483 --> 00:44:48,652
was the article
in <i>People Magazine,</i>

903
00:44:48,752 --> 00:44:51,255
and there she is,
lying on this couch,

904
00:44:51,355 --> 00:44:53,957
and she's got her top off
and...

905
00:44:54,059 --> 00:44:55,959
Why would you give that picture
in the first place

906
00:44:56,061 --> 00:44:57,594
to a-- to a magazine?

907
00:44:57,695 --> 00:44:59,263
Like, you've got
a wife back home.

908
00:44:59,363 --> 00:45:00,831
You're really
gonna get shit for this.

909
00:45:02,199 --> 00:45:03,400
That was heartbreaking,

910
00:45:03,500 --> 00:45:06,970
to think that he would
do that, you know?

911
00:45:07,072 --> 00:45:10,574
So I realized
that there was no hope.

912
00:45:12,242 --> 00:45:15,746
For me, that's...
that's where his...

913
00:45:15,846 --> 00:45:18,549
affection was.

914
00:45:19,783 --> 00:45:23,088
Michelle
was still married to Doug.

915
00:45:23,188 --> 00:45:24,354
He had a good job.

916
00:45:24,455 --> 00:45:25,556
You know,
Michelle got to stay home

917
00:45:25,656 --> 00:45:28,358
and do what she wanted to do.

918
00:45:28,459 --> 00:45:31,762
But they had
a really hard divorce.

919
00:45:32,730 --> 00:45:35,265
Michelle wanted
everything her way

920
00:45:35,365 --> 00:45:37,168
and he did not
see it coming at all.

921
00:45:39,603 --> 00:45:41,072
When that book came out,

922
00:45:41,172 --> 00:45:42,639
it was really rotten,

923
00:45:42,740 --> 00:45:46,677
and it was so hurtful
to see my mom at that time.

924
00:45:46,777 --> 00:45:47,544
She was in bed

925
00:45:47,644 --> 00:45:49,880
and she was, like,
destroyed.

926
00:45:49,980 --> 00:45:53,017
My dad was her first boyfriend.

927
00:45:54,085 --> 00:45:57,254
They had just been together,
like, her whole life,

928
00:45:57,354 --> 00:45:59,090
that's the only person
she knew.

929
00:45:59,190 --> 00:46:00,791
He definitely, like...

930
00:46:00,891 --> 00:46:03,393
he broke her heart.

931
00:46:04,428 --> 00:46:06,897
And yeah, no, he wasn't the same
with me at all.

932
00:46:06,997 --> 00:46:08,066
He wasn't friendly.

933
00:46:08,166 --> 00:46:09,333
He wasn't joking.

934
00:46:09,433 --> 00:46:11,268
He kind of didn't have
that same look.

935
00:46:11,368 --> 00:46:12,603
There wasn't that twinkle.

936
00:46:12,703 --> 00:46:14,671
There's just a lot of sadness.

937
00:46:16,974 --> 00:46:18,375
I got so upset

938
00:46:18,475 --> 00:46:21,845
that I just went down
and filed for a divorce.

939
00:46:22,946 --> 00:46:25,349
I said forget it.

940
00:46:27,684 --> 00:46:29,087
Forget it.

941
00:46:29,187 --> 00:46:30,687
No way.

942
00:46:31,722 --> 00:46:33,423
<i>Now, Michelle Smith,</i>

943
00:46:33,524 --> 00:46:35,492
you survived a year of abuse
by one of these cults

944
00:46:35,592 --> 00:46:37,394
when you were five years old.

945
00:46:37,494 --> 00:46:39,596
When you first
talked about these things,

946
00:46:39,696 --> 00:46:41,532
I mean, did people think
this was a fantasy,

947
00:46:41,632 --> 00:46:43,634
that y-you'd made this all up,
it was such hocus-pocus,

948
00:46:43,734 --> 00:46:46,336
that it couldn't possibly
have happened?

949
00:46:46,436 --> 00:46:48,539
Well, I was
one of the first to stand up

950
00:46:48,639 --> 00:46:50,574
and start to recount
these kinds of things

951
00:46:50,674 --> 00:46:53,111
and to bring it, um...
publicly,

952
00:46:53,211 --> 00:46:55,113
and I think people
are so uncomfortable

953
00:46:55,213 --> 00:46:56,947
and so afraid
of this whole subject

954
00:46:57,048 --> 00:47:00,084
that, yes, I experienced
a lot of the uncomfortableness,

955
00:47:00,185 --> 00:47:01,618
but what I also experienced

956
00:47:01,718 --> 00:47:04,189
was a tremendous number
of people saying,

957
00:47:04,289 --> 00:47:06,257
"this is true."

958
00:47:06,390 --> 00:47:07,491
I'm a cynical person

959
00:47:07,591 --> 00:47:09,827
who spent 30 years
in law enforcement.

960
00:47:09,927 --> 00:47:12,696
I assume that people are lying
unless I know otherwise,

961
00:47:12,796 --> 00:47:15,599
but a lot of therapists
have an opposite bias.

962
00:47:15,699 --> 00:47:18,036
They assume that everybody's
telling the truth,

963
00:47:18,136 --> 00:47:19,670
unless they know otherwise,

964
00:47:19,770 --> 00:47:23,241
and actually, this becomes
a huge aspect

965
00:47:23,340 --> 00:47:27,444
to these allegations
of Satanic ritual abuse,

966
00:47:27,544 --> 00:47:29,813
particularly with what's called
the adult survivors,

967
00:47:29,913 --> 00:47:31,515
and that's what
Michelle would be.

968
00:47:31,615 --> 00:47:33,550
The things
in the adult survivor cases--

969
00:47:33,650 --> 00:47:35,485
the stuff was even more weird

970
00:47:35,586 --> 00:47:37,055
than it was
in the younger kids

971
00:47:37,155 --> 00:47:38,622
at the daycare centres.

972
00:47:38,722 --> 00:47:42,426
Bonnie, you were made pregnant
when you were 11 years old?

973
00:47:42,526 --> 00:47:46,496
Yes. That child
was sacrificed within the cult

974
00:47:46,597 --> 00:47:48,333
when she was
about six months old.

975
00:47:48,432 --> 00:47:51,169
S-- Sacrificed how?

976
00:47:51,269 --> 00:47:52,736
By being stabbed,

977
00:47:52,836 --> 00:47:57,108
and I was coerced into
doing the act myself,

978
00:47:57,208 --> 00:47:58,842
with my own child.

979
00:47:58,942 --> 00:48:01,179
Uh, the police
never found out about this?

980
00:48:01,279 --> 00:48:06,351
The groups are extremely careful
to cover up all evidence

981
00:48:06,450 --> 00:48:09,419
through using crematoriums
and things like that.

982
00:48:09,519 --> 00:48:11,655
At least that's how
I understand it.

983
00:48:11,755 --> 00:48:14,025
"Adult survivors"

984
00:48:14,125 --> 00:48:16,027
are where you have an adult

985
00:48:16,127 --> 00:48:17,961
who goes into therapy

986
00:48:18,062 --> 00:48:20,831
without any memories
of horrific abuse

987
00:48:20,931 --> 00:48:22,066
and comes out

988
00:48:22,166 --> 00:48:25,402
with all of these allegedly
repressed and recovered

989
00:48:25,502 --> 00:48:26,603
trauma memories.

990
00:48:26,703 --> 00:48:30,208
That was some kind of
altogether...

991
00:48:30,308 --> 00:48:32,010
different thing.

992
00:48:32,110 --> 00:48:35,579
This wasn't just a little kid
and a fantasy.

993
00:48:36,580 --> 00:48:37,781
And you would have patients

994
00:48:37,881 --> 00:48:39,449
who had essentially
the Michelle experience,

995
00:48:39,549 --> 00:48:41,252
where suddenly,
you were logging enough hours

996
00:48:41,352 --> 00:48:44,289
on the couch,
"in the depths,"

997
00:48:44,389 --> 00:48:46,623
to qualify
as a full-time job,

998
00:48:46,723 --> 00:48:49,826
and where a doctor
who you trust...

999
00:48:50,961 --> 00:48:52,363
...is telling you

1000
00:48:52,462 --> 00:48:54,631
if there is
anything wrong with you,

1001
00:48:54,731 --> 00:48:58,435
it was a result of sexual abuse
that you had forgotten,

1002
00:48:58,535 --> 00:49:00,004
and probably Satanic abuse,

1003
00:49:00,104 --> 00:49:01,939
because apparently,
there's a lot of that,

1004
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:03,408
and you can read about it
in this book

1005
00:49:03,507 --> 00:49:04,574
that was a bestseller.

1006
00:49:06,443 --> 00:49:08,379
We have so many cases

1007
00:49:08,478 --> 00:49:11,416
that essentially are the fruit

1008
00:49:11,515 --> 00:49:14,685
of this tree
that Michelle and Larry planted.

1009
00:49:14,785 --> 00:49:17,754
There are therapists
all over the country today--

1010
00:49:17,854 --> 00:49:20,524
many of them that
are not really qualified

1011
00:49:20,624 --> 00:49:21,925
to be therapists--

1012
00:49:22,026 --> 00:49:24,395
that are-are passing on
these stories.

1013
00:49:26,097 --> 00:49:27,664
They were salesmen.

1014
00:49:27,764 --> 00:49:30,534
They were going around
the country,

1015
00:49:30,634 --> 00:49:33,937
selling fear of Satan,
fear of Satanic cults,

1016
00:49:34,038 --> 00:49:37,841
and they were--
they made a living out of it.

1017
00:49:37,941 --> 00:49:40,944
Her therapy--
13 months of in-patient work

1018
00:49:41,045 --> 00:49:43,880
for misdiagnosed Satanic,
ritualistic, everything...

1019
00:49:43,981 --> 00:49:49,753
her therapy,
over $1,300,000 <i>for her,</i>

1020
00:49:49,853 --> 00:49:52,622
then they got both of
her teenage daughters in.

1021
00:49:52,723 --> 00:49:53,957
One daughter went in

1022
00:49:54,058 --> 00:49:57,161
for 11 months
of in-patient therapy.

1023
00:49:57,261 --> 00:49:59,496
I think it's very clear

1024
00:49:59,596 --> 00:50:01,631
that the therapists saw

1025
00:50:01,732 --> 00:50:03,700
the opportunity
to make some money

1026
00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:07,338
off of these wild accusations
and stories.

1027
00:50:07,438 --> 00:50:08,572
This wouldn't have happened

1028
00:50:08,672 --> 00:50:10,408
had it not been
for the therapists

1029
00:50:10,507 --> 00:50:12,676
who compromised their ethics

1030
00:50:12,776 --> 00:50:15,946
and encouraged their patients

1031
00:50:16,047 --> 00:50:19,183
to elaborate
further and further.

1032
00:50:19,283 --> 00:50:21,452
<i>They cut us and made us</i>
<i>sign our names in blood</i>

1033
00:50:21,551 --> 00:50:22,786
<i>in</i> The Satanic Bible.

1034
00:50:22,886 --> 00:50:24,855
That was the first ritual
that I remember.

1035
00:50:24,955 --> 00:50:28,459
I was informed that my parents
were in the occult.

1036
00:50:28,558 --> 00:50:29,860
She claimed

1037
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,596
that we had a pizza delivery boy
come to our home.

1038
00:50:32,696 --> 00:50:35,433
We cut him up, grilled him,
and ate him.

1039
00:50:35,532 --> 00:50:37,301
I said,
"I know what you did.

1040
00:50:37,402 --> 00:50:39,703
You're the ringleader
of this cult

1041
00:50:39,803 --> 00:50:41,472
that I know
you murdered babies,

1042
00:50:41,571 --> 00:50:43,940
and I know you made me
murder babies,

1043
00:50:44,042 --> 00:50:45,176
and eat babies,

1044
00:50:45,276 --> 00:50:46,444
and I know just what you are.

1045
00:50:46,543 --> 00:50:47,978
I know you
for the Satanist that you are."

1046
00:50:48,079 --> 00:50:49,813
And Sally,
most of these women

1047
00:50:49,913 --> 00:50:51,548
don't come forward
until their mid-30s,

1048
00:50:51,648 --> 00:50:53,117
after five or seven years'
worth of--

1049
00:50:53,217 --> 00:50:56,620
This is not a case in which
someone has repressed memory.

1050
00:50:56,720 --> 00:50:58,523
This is a courageous woman
who has--

1051
00:51:00,857 --> 00:51:02,759
I would run into
adult survivors

1052
00:51:02,859 --> 00:51:04,495
on, like, <i>The Sally Show</i> ,

1053
00:51:04,594 --> 00:51:07,465
and so many different kinds
of people--

1054
00:51:07,564 --> 00:51:08,598
including educated people--

1055
00:51:08,698 --> 00:51:10,967
believed
that this was happening,

1056
00:51:11,069 --> 00:51:13,471
and if you didn't believe it,
you were suspect--

1057
00:51:13,570 --> 00:51:16,374
I mean, at best,
of not caring about children,

1058
00:51:16,474 --> 00:51:19,110
and at worst,
that you are a Satanist.

1059
00:51:19,210 --> 00:51:21,145
Are you accusing me of
being a Satanist? Yes or no?

1060
00:51:21,245 --> 00:51:23,247
You're acting like--
You're acting like one.

1061
00:51:23,347 --> 00:51:24,714
Say it. Yes or no?

1062
00:51:24,815 --> 00:51:27,085
I'm saying you're acting like
a Satanist right now.

1063
00:51:27,185 --> 00:51:29,653
Some people suggested
that what they thought

1064
00:51:29,753 --> 00:51:32,622
was causing Satanism
was heavy-metal music,

1065
00:51:32,722 --> 00:51:33,924
and some of the people

1066
00:51:34,025 --> 00:51:36,060
who were trying
to investigate this stuff,

1067
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:37,861
they thought
they were doing a good thing.

1068
00:51:37,961 --> 00:51:39,163
How often do you find

1069
00:51:39,263 --> 00:51:40,565
heavy-metal-music indicators

1070
00:51:40,664 --> 00:51:43,667
at the scene of a crime
involving Satanic worship?

1071
00:51:43,767 --> 00:51:46,636
Probably about 35 to 40%
of the calls.

1072
00:51:46,736 --> 00:51:48,039
-Regularly, then?
-Yes.

1073
00:51:48,139 --> 00:51:51,209
At the same time,
there was kind of a...

1074
00:51:51,309 --> 00:51:52,809
I guess you'd call it a rumour,

1075
00:51:52,909 --> 00:51:54,412
although it got picked up
by the press

1076
00:51:54,512 --> 00:51:58,449
and it was taken as absolutely--
as fact, to the effect that--

1077
00:51:58,549 --> 00:51:59,850
that, you know,

1078
00:51:59,950 --> 00:52:02,619
thousands and thousands
of children were missing.

1079
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:03,954
Thousands.

1080
00:52:04,055 --> 00:52:06,656
You know, then,
the next question is, well, why?

1081
00:52:06,756 --> 00:52:08,758
I mean, who's taking them?

1082
00:52:08,859 --> 00:52:11,728
Supposedly, the Satanists
were taking the children.

1083
00:52:11,828 --> 00:52:13,598
I believe that they do.

1084
00:52:13,697 --> 00:52:15,932
I can't-- We can't prove
that they do,

1085
00:52:16,033 --> 00:52:18,536
but as
a law-enforcement officer,

1086
00:52:18,635 --> 00:52:23,040
I question two million children
missing in the United States,

1087
00:52:23,141 --> 00:52:26,210
knowing that many, many of those
are not runaways.

1088
00:52:26,310 --> 00:52:28,712
They were saying
two million children

1089
00:52:28,812 --> 00:52:30,515
are sacrificed every year
in the United States.

1090
00:52:30,615 --> 00:52:32,383
3.71 million children

1091
00:52:32,483 --> 00:52:34,051
were born every year
in the States.

1092
00:52:34,152 --> 00:52:36,853
You're telling me that 54%
of the children born

1093
00:52:36,953 --> 00:52:39,357
are all kidnapped
and sacrificed?

1094
00:52:39,457 --> 00:52:40,690
Really? Like...

1095
00:52:40,790 --> 00:52:42,959
no evidence of that, folks.

1096
00:52:43,060 --> 00:52:44,828
The hard evidence
is difficult to find,

1097
00:52:44,928 --> 00:52:46,564
because
if a child is sacrificed,

1098
00:52:46,663 --> 00:52:48,665
that child's body
isn't going to be left.

1099
00:52:48,765 --> 00:52:50,800
If it's
an orthodox Satanic cult,

1100
00:52:50,901 --> 00:52:52,603
they're going to burn the body

1101
00:52:52,702 --> 00:52:54,138
and they're going to eat it
during ceremony,

1102
00:52:54,238 --> 00:52:55,872
so they'll leave
no evidence around.

1103
00:52:55,972 --> 00:52:57,741
The proof
that we have had disappears.

1104
00:52:57,841 --> 00:52:59,843
W-What proof has disappeared,
that we had?

1105
00:52:59,943 --> 00:53:03,147
Okay, a good example
is I had, uh, baby wax.

1106
00:53:03,247 --> 00:53:04,549
What's "baby wax"?

1107
00:53:04,649 --> 00:53:05,682
Wax from a baby
that was burned.

1108
00:53:05,782 --> 00:53:06,950
A baby that was burned

1109
00:53:07,051 --> 00:53:09,253
and the wax was made
into a candle

1110
00:53:09,353 --> 00:53:10,521
of b-baby wax.

1111
00:53:10,621 --> 00:53:12,557
It's a very important thing
in the cult.

1112
00:53:12,657 --> 00:53:15,393
They make candles
out of babies?

1113
00:53:18,496 --> 00:53:20,598
It was part of the zeitgeist.

1114
00:53:20,697 --> 00:53:23,134
There was just
a complete lack of skepticism.

1115
00:53:23,234 --> 00:53:24,569
I mean,

1116
00:53:24,669 --> 00:53:26,637
<i>Michelle Remembers</i> had
something
to do with that, right?

1117
00:53:26,736 --> 00:53:28,272
Because in <i>Michelle Remembers,</i>
it's kind of,

1118
00:53:28,372 --> 00:53:30,707
"This is what's happening
to the babies."

1119
00:53:31,975 --> 00:53:34,145
Within <i>Michelle Remembers,</i>

1120
00:53:34,245 --> 00:53:36,846
they use the term
"Church of Satan"

1121
00:53:36,947 --> 00:53:38,549
to describe this...

1122
00:53:38,649 --> 00:53:41,851
cabal of
vile, terrible people

1123
00:53:41,952 --> 00:53:44,488
doing
these heinous criminal acts--

1124
00:53:44,589 --> 00:53:46,923
saying
that we sacrifice animals,

1125
00:53:47,024 --> 00:53:49,660
that we sacrifice babies...

1126
00:53:49,759 --> 00:53:53,030
but the whole point
of the Church of Satan--

1127
00:53:53,130 --> 00:53:56,133
what Anton LaVey founded
in 1966--

1128
00:53:56,234 --> 00:53:58,202
was liberation

1129
00:53:58,302 --> 00:54:00,804
and embracing
our strangeness, our uniqueness,

1130
00:54:00,904 --> 00:54:03,773
the things that make us
different from each other.

1131
00:54:03,873 --> 00:54:05,710
This is
a very selfish religion.

1132
00:54:05,809 --> 00:54:06,711
We believe in greed.

1133
00:54:06,810 --> 00:54:07,712
We believe in selfishness.

1134
00:54:07,811 --> 00:54:09,080
We believe in

1135
00:54:09,180 --> 00:54:12,083
all of the lustful thoughts
that motivate man

1136
00:54:12,183 --> 00:54:15,219
because this is man's
natural, uh, feeling.

1137
00:54:15,319 --> 00:54:18,089
This is based on
what man naturally would do.

1138
00:54:18,189 --> 00:54:20,924
Anton LaVey blended

1139
00:54:21,025 --> 00:54:24,028
magic and science
and rationality,

1140
00:54:24,128 --> 00:54:26,830
and a lot of people,
especially in those early days,

1141
00:54:26,930 --> 00:54:30,034
found the Church of Satan
uniquely liberating,

1142
00:54:30,134 --> 00:54:32,336
for one reason or another.

1143
00:54:32,436 --> 00:54:34,005
They found Satanism

1144
00:54:34,105 --> 00:54:36,440
to be a celebration
of their differences.

1145
00:54:36,540 --> 00:54:37,841
It wasn't a tolerance.

1146
00:54:37,941 --> 00:54:40,044
It was a celebration.

1147
00:54:40,144 --> 00:54:43,314
And that's what
Satanism is to us,

1148
00:54:43,414 --> 00:54:44,548
to a Satanist.

1149
00:54:44,649 --> 00:54:46,617
Are you planning on training
a lot of little devils?

1150
00:54:48,019 --> 00:54:50,087
Only those that wish
to become little devils.

1151
00:54:50,187 --> 00:54:51,656
-Are you married?
-Oh, yes.

1152
00:54:51,756 --> 00:54:52,723
Do you have
any little devils?

1153
00:54:52,822 --> 00:54:53,990
Oh, yes. I have two.

1154
00:54:54,091 --> 00:54:56,127
Are you gonna raise them
as Satanic kids?

1155
00:54:56,227 --> 00:54:57,161
Certainly,

1156
00:54:57,261 --> 00:54:58,763
but not to go around
chopping people up

1157
00:54:58,862 --> 00:55:00,797
or sacrificing human beings.

1158
00:55:02,633 --> 00:55:03,867
One of the things

1159
00:55:03,967 --> 00:55:06,137
that Anton LaVey
was particularly miffed about

1160
00:55:06,237 --> 00:55:09,774
was how <i>Michelle Remembers</i>
was marketed--

1161
00:55:09,873 --> 00:55:12,909
that it was supposedly
a true story...

1162
00:55:14,078 --> 00:55:15,780
...but <i>Michelle Remembers,</i>
obviously,

1163
00:55:15,879 --> 00:55:17,782
is so chock full

1164
00:55:17,881 --> 00:55:21,652
of things that Satanism
very clearly isn't.

1165
00:55:21,752 --> 00:55:24,322
He said we are
an established religion,

1166
00:55:24,422 --> 00:55:27,991
protected by the Constitution
of the United States.

1167
00:55:28,092 --> 00:55:29,460
Here they were,
using it,

1168
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:32,463
as if we were some international
criminal organization.

1169
00:55:33,664 --> 00:55:35,099
And that's why
the Church of Satan

1170
00:55:35,199 --> 00:55:37,901
brought a defamation suit
against them

1171
00:55:38,001 --> 00:55:40,904
in the court of law
in 1981.

1172
00:55:42,073 --> 00:55:45,509
And subsequent printings
of <i>Michelle Remembers</i>

1173
00:55:45,609 --> 00:55:47,044
did take out

1174
00:55:47,144 --> 00:55:50,514
most of the references
to the Church of Satan.

1175
00:55:51,582 --> 00:55:52,783
Hail Satan.

1176
00:55:52,882 --> 00:55:54,951
Hail Satan.

1177
00:55:58,456 --> 00:55:59,657
I don't believe

1178
00:55:59,757 --> 00:56:02,360
that my mom
is that type of person

1179
00:56:02,460 --> 00:56:05,995
that would turn her child
over to a Satanic cult.

1180
00:56:07,198 --> 00:56:11,435
It was not part of my childhood
when I was a kid.

1181
00:56:12,436 --> 00:56:14,605
I couldn't see
my mom doing that.

1182
00:56:14,705 --> 00:56:15,905
I just couldn't...

1183
00:56:16,006 --> 00:56:17,941
As a mother,

1184
00:56:18,042 --> 00:56:20,977
your instinct
is to protect your child...

1185
00:56:21,078 --> 00:56:23,047
but when I was 10 years old,

1186
00:56:23,147 --> 00:56:26,851
my mom was diagnosed
with non-Hodgkin's lymphoma,

1187
00:56:26,950 --> 00:56:28,652
and so she died
shortly after that.

1188
00:56:29,787 --> 00:56:31,455
When my mom passed away,

1189
00:56:31,555 --> 00:56:33,257
her wish was
that she wanted to be cremated.

1190
00:56:33,357 --> 00:56:35,459
She wanted to have her ashes
put in the crypt.

1191
00:56:35,559 --> 00:56:38,295
This is how important
this church was to her.

1192
00:56:41,632 --> 00:56:43,401
It was important to Mom.

1193
00:56:43,501 --> 00:56:46,070
You know, her marriage
was not great,

1194
00:56:46,170 --> 00:56:48,672
so she came here for support.

1195
00:56:53,377 --> 00:56:55,312
In the book,

1196
00:56:55,413 --> 00:56:57,281
Michelle said that my mother
was this horrible person,

1197
00:56:57,381 --> 00:57:00,651
giving up her little girl
to a Satanic cult...

1198
00:57:01,786 --> 00:57:04,755
But I don't understand why
Michelle would even think that.

1199
00:57:04,855 --> 00:57:06,956
What is wrong with her?

1200
00:57:08,159 --> 00:57:09,794
Why did you think

1201
00:57:09,894 --> 00:57:11,162
that there were others

1202
00:57:11,262 --> 00:57:13,130
who would have been
through this experience?

1203
00:57:13,230 --> 00:57:14,732
Because when I was
in that experience,

1204
00:57:14,832 --> 00:57:16,066
I wasn't the only child.

1205
00:57:16,167 --> 00:57:17,902
So there had to be others,

1206
00:57:18,001 --> 00:57:21,038
and I knew this wasn't
an isolated thing in--

1207
00:57:21,138 --> 00:57:22,173
in just Victoria.

1208
00:57:22,273 --> 00:57:24,175
I thought
maybe there would be...

1209
00:57:24,275 --> 00:57:26,377
you know, unrealistic,

1210
00:57:26,477 --> 00:57:29,680
30, 60 people out there
at the most,

1211
00:57:29,780 --> 00:57:30,915
not the hundreds...

1212
00:57:31,015 --> 00:57:32,982
It was in 1987,

1213
00:57:33,083 --> 00:57:35,419
and it was a conference
in Richmond, Virginia,

1214
00:57:35,519 --> 00:57:37,721
where I met Dr. Pazder.

1215
00:57:37,822 --> 00:57:39,757
So we sat in this room

1216
00:57:39,857 --> 00:57:42,026
and Dr. Pazder
was up at the podium

1217
00:57:42,126 --> 00:57:44,961
and Michelle was
off to the side there.

1218
00:57:45,062 --> 00:57:46,996
One thing
that really got me interested

1219
00:57:47,097 --> 00:57:49,333
is Dr. Pazder indicated

1220
00:57:49,433 --> 00:57:51,968
that he thought
that most of the alleged cases

1221
00:57:52,069 --> 00:57:53,671
were a bunch of nonsense,

1222
00:57:53,771 --> 00:57:55,339
but he then said something

1223
00:57:55,439 --> 00:57:58,309
that I was just
tremendously interested in.

1224
00:57:58,409 --> 00:58:02,480
"I'm gonna tell you
how to identify the real cases."

1225
00:58:02,580 --> 00:58:05,316
So I said, "Man, this could be
really valuable information,"

1226
00:58:05,416 --> 00:58:07,351
because I never was
one of those people who believed

1227
00:58:07,451 --> 00:58:09,986
they were all true
or they were all false.

1228
00:58:10,087 --> 00:58:13,090
There can be
a middle ground in here.

1229
00:58:13,190 --> 00:58:15,159
He would start
to describe these rituals

1230
00:58:15,259 --> 00:58:17,828
and began to talk
about Michelle.

1231
00:58:17,928 --> 00:58:20,130
But cops tend to ask
a lot of questions,

1232
00:58:20,231 --> 00:58:22,999
so the cops in the audience
began to raise their hand--

1233
00:58:23,100 --> 00:58:24,468
"What about this?"
"What about that?"

1234
00:58:24,568 --> 00:58:26,937
and-and I just
kinda began to notice

1235
00:58:27,037 --> 00:58:28,806
that every time
somebody asked a question,

1236
00:58:28,906 --> 00:58:30,608
Michelle never said a whole lot,

1237
00:58:30,708 --> 00:58:33,110
and he would always
answer the question,

1238
00:58:33,210 --> 00:58:34,945
and after a while,

1239
00:58:35,045 --> 00:58:37,281
after this happened
half a dozen times,

1240
00:58:37,381 --> 00:58:38,883
I just raised my hand,
I said,

1241
00:58:38,983 --> 00:58:43,254
"I'm curious, when people ask--
this all happened to Michelle.

1242
00:58:43,354 --> 00:58:45,890
"How come she doesn't
give the answer?

1243
00:58:45,990 --> 00:58:47,124
She turns to you."

1244
00:58:47,224 --> 00:58:49,026
He just said some version of--

1245
00:58:49,126 --> 00:58:50,494
I don't remember
his exact words--

1246
00:58:50,594 --> 00:58:52,463
something like, "Well, when
she first came to me,

1247
00:58:52,563 --> 00:58:54,298
she had no conscious memory
of it,

1248
00:58:54,398 --> 00:58:55,933
and through this therapy,

1249
00:58:56,033 --> 00:59:00,070
this story began to come out
over a year or more as time..."

1250
00:59:00,170 --> 00:59:03,774
and then he recorded it,
wrote it all down,

1251
00:59:03,874 --> 00:59:05,175
and documented it,

1252
00:59:05,276 --> 00:59:07,411
and then after that...

1253
00:59:07,511 --> 00:59:09,213
it kind of-- most of it
left her memory

1254
00:59:09,313 --> 00:59:11,982
and he was now
the keeper of the story.

1255
00:59:12,082 --> 00:59:14,685
I decided that
that greatly reduced the value

1256
00:59:14,785 --> 00:59:16,186
of what he was telling me,

1257
00:59:16,287 --> 00:59:17,555
so I put my pen down

1258
00:59:17,655 --> 00:59:20,391
and didn't take
as many notes after that.

1259
00:59:20,491 --> 00:59:24,194
Every time she entered
into a new area of working,

1260
00:59:24,295 --> 00:59:25,896
everything
that she had said before

1261
00:59:25,996 --> 00:59:27,331
was totally consistent,

1262
00:59:27,431 --> 00:59:30,768
and then, when she had
completed what she had done,

1263
00:59:30,868 --> 00:59:34,204
and was completely free of it...

1264
00:59:34,305 --> 00:59:36,540
it had a ring of truth to it,
that I said, you know,

1265
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:39,910
"This is not accountable
from anything in the literature,

1266
00:59:40,011 --> 00:59:41,178
except from the fact

1267
00:59:41,278 --> 00:59:42,413
that she'd been
through that experience."

1268
00:59:42,513 --> 00:59:44,715
There's no other way
I can explain it.

1269
00:59:44,815 --> 00:59:46,984
During,
I think, the lunch break,

1270
00:59:47,084 --> 00:59:48,419
somehow, it just came out--

1271
00:59:48,519 --> 00:59:50,254
although,
he didn't try to hide it,

1272
00:59:50,354 --> 00:59:54,191
but it came out
that Michelle was now his wife,

1273
00:59:54,291 --> 00:59:56,594
and that was another factor
that caused me to think,

1274
00:59:56,694 --> 00:59:58,429
"Well, that's kind of
an inappropriate," you know,

1275
00:59:58,529 --> 01:00:00,497
"doctor-patient
kind of a thing.

1276
01:00:00,598 --> 01:00:03,767
How did that affect this story
that he's now telling?"

1277
01:00:05,402 --> 01:00:08,238
I think
Michelle loved Larry.

1278
01:00:09,306 --> 01:00:11,709
She worshipped him.

1279
01:00:11,809 --> 01:00:15,946
But him and Michelle
were exact opposites,

1280
01:00:16,047 --> 01:00:17,715
and, uh...

1281
01:00:17,815 --> 01:00:24,722
I can't figure out
why Larry married her.

1282
01:00:24,822 --> 01:00:27,524
I really can't.
I-I...

1283
01:00:28,525 --> 01:00:31,295
You know,
would it come from a--

1284
01:00:31,395 --> 01:00:33,263
from needing to protect her?

1285
01:00:33,364 --> 01:00:36,333
I know he felt a need
to-to protect her

1286
01:00:36,433 --> 01:00:38,469
and look after her...

1287
01:00:38,569 --> 01:00:42,272
but marrying her
is a whole different ball game.

1288
01:00:44,942 --> 01:00:46,710
We always thought

1289
01:00:46,810 --> 01:00:51,281
there was a reason
why he had to marry her.

1290
01:00:51,382 --> 01:00:53,550
You know,
he's a psychiatrist,

1291
01:00:53,651 --> 01:00:56,320
and he crossed the line
with her.

1292
01:00:59,189 --> 01:01:02,493
And she had tied him
into that lie so tightly

1293
01:01:02,593 --> 01:01:03,927
with that book,

1294
01:01:04,029 --> 01:01:06,330
that there was
no getting out of it.

1295
01:01:07,464 --> 01:01:09,967
We're never told
that a sexual relationship

1296
01:01:10,068 --> 01:01:11,935
begins between Michelle
and the doctor

1297
01:01:12,037 --> 01:01:14,438
at any time during therapy,

1298
01:01:14,538 --> 01:01:17,274
but regardless
of what you think

1299
01:01:17,374 --> 01:01:18,976
about what did
or didn't happen

1300
01:01:19,077 --> 01:01:20,244
or what we're not being told,

1301
01:01:20,344 --> 01:01:22,413
I think you can take
what they say

1302
01:01:22,513 --> 01:01:24,281
at face value
in this regard

1303
01:01:24,381 --> 01:01:29,353
and still see
a wildly unethical relationship.

1304
01:01:32,489 --> 01:01:34,224
After they got married,

1305
01:01:34,324 --> 01:01:36,427
everything stopped.

1306
01:01:36,527 --> 01:01:38,262
She just wanted a normal life.

1307
01:01:39,430 --> 01:01:40,764
I know
that Oprah Winfrey called.

1308
01:01:40,864 --> 01:01:43,734
I was there at the house
when I picked up the phone,

1309
01:01:43,834 --> 01:01:47,404
and... and, uh, Michelle says,
"I don't want to talk to them."

1310
01:01:47,504 --> 01:01:49,206
You know, there are
thousands of men and women

1311
01:01:49,306 --> 01:01:50,507
who are secretly
worshipping the Devil.

1312
01:01:50,607 --> 01:01:51,709
The Devil!

1313
01:01:51,809 --> 01:01:53,243
If you'd like to join
that audience on Thursday

1314
01:01:53,343 --> 01:01:55,412
when we discuss Satanism,

1315
01:01:55,512 --> 01:01:57,948
call now
to reserve your seats.

1316
01:01:58,049 --> 01:01:59,416
The daily talk shows--

1317
01:01:59,516 --> 01:02:01,485
people, today,
I don't think realize

1318
01:02:01,585 --> 01:02:04,521
how pervasive
these opinions were.

1319
01:02:04,621 --> 01:02:06,124
Why, Doctor,

1320
01:02:06,223 --> 01:02:08,425
would you perform an exorcism

1321
01:02:08,525 --> 01:02:12,396
on a patient who came to you
to seek psychological help?

1322
01:02:13,497 --> 01:02:14,665
Well, because the patient

1323
01:02:14,765 --> 01:02:17,168
who was referred to me
by the State

1324
01:02:17,267 --> 01:02:19,703
was a Satanic ritual survivor.

1325
01:02:19,803 --> 01:02:21,605
At the time,

1326
01:02:21,705 --> 01:02:24,641
these talk shows would be
several times a day,

1327
01:02:24,742 --> 01:02:26,744
and they were
very well respected,

1328
01:02:26,844 --> 01:02:31,615
but they were all
feeding on the Satanic Panic.

1329
01:02:31,715 --> 01:02:34,852
Explain to us
what really did happen

1330
01:02:34,952 --> 01:02:36,453
over these 17 years.

1331
01:02:36,553 --> 01:02:38,489
They started a Satanic cult
when I was five.

1332
01:02:38,589 --> 01:02:40,290
-Who did?
-My parents.

1333
01:02:40,390 --> 01:02:42,326
They would either
kill an animal,

1334
01:02:42,426 --> 01:02:43,627
sometimes they would
kill a baby--

1335
01:02:43,727 --> 01:02:45,662
A baby?
Where would they get babies?

1336
01:02:45,763 --> 01:02:47,165
Um...

1337
01:02:47,264 --> 01:02:52,402
sometimes, people in the cult
would have them just for this--

1338
01:02:52,503 --> 01:02:54,905
...and then when it was...

1339
01:02:55,006 --> 01:02:56,340
...when it was dead,

1340
01:02:56,440 --> 01:02:59,343
then people in the group
ate parts of it.

1341
01:02:59,443 --> 01:03:01,246
Dr. LaVey said, "I'd love

1342
01:03:01,345 --> 01:03:03,514
for somebody to call them
on their bullshit,"

1343
01:03:03,614 --> 01:03:04,815
but they wouldn't do it,

1344
01:03:04,915 --> 01:03:06,750
because it wouldn't
make good television.

1345
01:03:06,850 --> 01:03:09,087
In a nutshell,
there was a lot of craziness.

1346
01:03:09,187 --> 01:03:11,555
It was a fearful time,

1347
01:03:11,655 --> 01:03:14,625
and the one big promotion of it,

1348
01:03:14,725 --> 01:03:17,728
the one really big
promotion of it,

1349
01:03:17,828 --> 01:03:20,531
was Geraldo's
three-hour program

1350
01:03:20,631 --> 01:03:23,300
about Satanic cult crime
in the United States.

1351
01:03:23,400 --> 01:03:25,469
Of course,
millions of people saw it.

1352
01:03:25,569 --> 01:03:27,805
Millions of those people
who had preconceptions

1353
01:03:27,905 --> 01:03:28,906
believed it,

1354
01:03:29,007 --> 01:03:31,142
and it caused a lot of harm.

1355
01:03:31,242 --> 01:03:32,409
<i>These women say</i>

1356
01:03:32,509 --> 01:03:34,012
<i>they speak</i>
<i>from personal experience.</i>

1357
01:03:34,112 --> 01:03:35,512
<i>They claim to be breeders,</i>

1358
01:03:35,612 --> 01:03:38,415
<i>forced by covens</i>
<i>to bear children.</i>

1359
01:03:38,515 --> 01:03:41,119
Did you give birth to infants
who were sacrificed?

1360
01:03:41,219 --> 01:03:42,352
My first two.

1361
01:03:42,452 --> 01:03:44,155
-Were sacrificed?
-Were sacrificed.

1362
01:03:44,255 --> 01:03:45,489
I was told it was

1363
01:03:45,589 --> 01:03:47,192
the highest honour
I could ever do as a woman

1364
01:03:47,292 --> 01:03:49,160
was to sacrifice
my first two.

1365
01:03:53,264 --> 01:03:54,431
There's a part of me
that wants to think

1366
01:03:54,531 --> 01:03:56,500
that these people
are just flat-out nuts--

1367
01:03:56,600 --> 01:03:57,968
and some of them are,
don't get me wrong!

1368
01:03:59,903 --> 01:04:00,771
And you look at this,

1369
01:04:00,871 --> 01:04:03,774
and you say,
"Are these people...?"

1370
01:04:03,874 --> 01:04:05,642
It is most common

1371
01:04:05,742 --> 01:04:11,216
for the heart
to be taken from the child...

1372
01:04:11,316 --> 01:04:12,783
and offered to Satan.

1373
01:04:14,551 --> 01:04:15,886
Today, a lot of people

1374
01:04:15,986 --> 01:04:19,356
think that the Satanic Panic
was sort of a joke...

1375
01:04:20,724 --> 01:04:23,294
...but a lot of conditions
were created during that time

1376
01:04:23,393 --> 01:04:25,029
for people to get
more interested

1377
01:04:25,129 --> 01:04:28,365
in the idea that
evil, bad things were going on,

1378
01:04:28,465 --> 01:04:29,900
and you know,
one of those things

1379
01:04:30,000 --> 01:04:32,002
that you could really
hang your hat on

1380
01:04:32,103 --> 01:04:33,071
was Satan.

1381
01:04:34,371 --> 01:04:36,773
And... it was dead serious.

1382
01:04:38,309 --> 01:04:40,377
<i>The Essex County</i>
<i>Prosecutor's Office says</i>

1383
01:04:40,477 --> 01:04:42,412
<i>26-year-old</i>
<i>Margaret Kelly Michaels</i>

1384
01:04:42,512 --> 01:04:44,481
<i>is a manipulative,</i>
<i>sadistic, child...</i>

1385
01:04:44,581 --> 01:04:45,816
<i>Preschool teacher Michaels</i>

1386
01:04:45,916 --> 01:04:47,985
<i>was convicted</i>
<i>of molesting 19 children.</i>

1387
01:04:48,086 --> 01:04:50,054
<i>Molesting them in bizarre ways,</i>

1388
01:04:50,154 --> 01:04:51,256
<i>and in the middle</i>

1389
01:04:51,356 --> 01:04:52,756
<i>of this crowded</i>
<i>New Jersey school</i>

1390
01:04:52,856 --> 01:04:56,693
<i>without any teacher or parent</i>
<i>noticing anything.</i>

1391
01:04:57,594 --> 01:05:00,098
I covered
the Kelly Michaels' case

1392
01:05:00,198 --> 01:05:01,465
and I walked into that jail,

1393
01:05:01,565 --> 01:05:03,067
and it was so filthy,

1394
01:05:03,167 --> 01:05:04,269
and I interviewed her,

1395
01:05:04,369 --> 01:05:05,469
and it was terrible

1396
01:05:05,569 --> 01:05:07,804
to see this happen
to a young woman,

1397
01:05:07,905 --> 01:05:10,407
because, you know, I felt like
that could have been me.

1398
01:05:10,507 --> 01:05:11,942
I mean, I could've gone,

1399
01:05:12,043 --> 01:05:15,579
worked in a daycare centre
when I was in my early 20s.

1400
01:05:15,679 --> 01:05:20,051
It was very vicious,
what was done to her.

1401
01:05:20,151 --> 01:05:24,222
They say you inserted objects,
including LEGO blocks,

1402
01:05:24,322 --> 01:05:26,556
forks, spoons, serrated knives

1403
01:05:26,657 --> 01:05:28,992
into their anuses, vaginas--

1404
01:05:29,093 --> 01:05:30,560
And a sword, that was in--

1405
01:05:30,661 --> 01:05:31,995
-...And a sword?
-Yeah, yeah.

1406
01:05:32,096 --> 01:05:34,665
That you made children
drink your urine,

1407
01:05:34,765 --> 01:05:37,734
that you made kids
take their clothes off,

1408
01:05:37,834 --> 01:05:40,003
and licked
peanut butter off them?

1409
01:05:40,104 --> 01:05:42,373
It's very hard to believe,

1410
01:05:42,472 --> 01:05:45,742
yet the jury believed it
and not you.

1411
01:05:45,842 --> 01:05:48,478
No one is willing
to doubt a child.

1412
01:05:49,846 --> 01:05:51,748
There were people
who went to jail

1413
01:05:51,848 --> 01:05:55,219
as a consequence
of the Satanic Panic.

1414
01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:58,122
Certainly,
<i>Michelle Remembers</i> --

1415
01:05:59,456 --> 01:06:01,359
...all of it can't be laid
at the foot

1416
01:06:01,491 --> 01:06:03,593
of one book,
two people,

1417
01:06:03,694 --> 01:06:06,530
but they sure didn't help.

1418
01:06:06,630 --> 01:06:09,167
They did
an enormous amount of damage.

1419
01:06:09,267 --> 01:06:10,767
They ruined people's lives.

1420
01:06:10,867 --> 01:06:13,570
They cost them
enormous amounts of money.

1421
01:06:13,670 --> 01:06:16,773
They put misinformation
out there knowingly.

1422
01:06:17,874 --> 01:06:20,111
Tell as big a lie as possible
with a straight face,

1423
01:06:20,211 --> 01:06:21,645
and just keep tellin' it.

1424
01:06:21,745 --> 01:06:23,580
It works,
to a certain extent--

1425
01:06:23,680 --> 01:06:26,717
it works until those of us
who are...

1426
01:06:28,319 --> 01:06:29,586
...paying attention

1427
01:06:29,686 --> 01:06:31,456
stand up and challenge it.

1428
01:06:32,923 --> 01:06:34,524
It's a very
interesting question

1429
01:06:34,624 --> 01:06:38,296
when people talk about
where this began...

1430
01:06:39,330 --> 01:06:43,101
...and so, Dr. Pazder's ex-wife
sent me a letter.

1431
01:06:43,967 --> 01:06:45,836
She had heard my name
was out there,

1432
01:06:45,936 --> 01:06:47,838
and she knew I was
looking into all of this,

1433
01:06:47,938 --> 01:06:50,607
and she said
that she could tell me

1434
01:06:50,707 --> 01:06:52,043
and explain to me

1435
01:06:52,143 --> 01:06:55,645
how all of this evolved
and how all this came to be.

1436
01:06:57,748 --> 01:06:59,983
We didn't know

1437
01:07:00,084 --> 01:07:03,587
that people had gone to prison
because of the book...

1438
01:07:03,687 --> 01:07:07,591
and that was, I think,
about 1990 that I realized.

1439
01:07:07,691 --> 01:07:09,526
It was just a terrible shock.

1440
01:07:09,626 --> 01:07:10,927
It was just terrible.

1441
01:07:11,029 --> 01:07:14,332
We were--
It was just terrible.

1442
01:07:16,633 --> 01:07:18,369
But I felt that,
if people were in jail,

1443
01:07:18,469 --> 01:07:19,803
it's our responsibility

1444
01:07:19,903 --> 01:07:22,973
to do everything that we can
to help those people.

1445
01:07:24,075 --> 01:07:27,744
So anybody
that came to Victoria...

1446
01:07:27,844 --> 01:07:30,947
I would just help them
the best I could.

1447
01:07:33,251 --> 01:07:36,287
My mom started looking into it,

1448
01:07:36,387 --> 01:07:38,822
and she went to the house,

1449
01:07:38,922 --> 01:07:41,426
she went to the neighbours,

1450
01:07:41,526 --> 01:07:43,660
she went to the school records.

1451
01:07:44,828 --> 01:07:46,997
I went to the registry.

1452
01:07:47,098 --> 01:07:49,033
We found out
every place she lived,

1453
01:07:49,133 --> 01:07:50,268
where she was,

1454
01:07:50,368 --> 01:07:51,536
went to the neighbours,

1455
01:07:51,635 --> 01:07:54,205
and we gave that evidence

1456
01:07:54,305 --> 01:07:57,208
to the different
investigations in the States

1457
01:07:57,308 --> 01:07:58,975
and that sort of thing.

1458
01:07:59,077 --> 01:08:01,345
They were very specific claims,

1459
01:08:01,446 --> 01:08:02,513
<i>Michelle Remembers</i> ,

1460
01:08:02,612 --> 01:08:04,015
about a certain period of time,

1461
01:08:04,115 --> 01:08:07,418
and she named the time--
I believe it was 1955--

1462
01:08:07,518 --> 01:08:09,619
where she was gone,

1463
01:08:09,719 --> 01:08:12,190
she was held captive
by these Satanists,

1464
01:08:12,290 --> 01:08:15,126
and so we thought
it should be pretty easy,

1465
01:08:15,226 --> 01:08:17,528
you know,
to see whether we can find her

1466
01:08:17,627 --> 01:08:18,995
during that time.

1467
01:08:21,631 --> 01:08:23,101
We just went to the school...

1468
01:08:24,235 --> 01:08:27,071
...and asked them
for the yearbook.

1469
01:08:27,171 --> 01:08:30,241
They have a collection
of all the yearbooks.

1470
01:08:30,341 --> 01:08:31,775
Her picture was right there.

1471
01:08:31,875 --> 01:08:34,778
And they said the picture
was taken in the fall,

1472
01:08:34,878 --> 01:08:37,048
while she was supposed
to be locked up.

1473
01:08:37,148 --> 01:08:37,914
She wasn't.

1474
01:08:38,015 --> 01:08:40,051
Her picture was right there.

1475
01:08:40,151 --> 01:08:42,353
There she was.

1476
01:08:42,453 --> 01:08:44,255
You can't deny it.

1477
01:08:45,789 --> 01:08:47,924
Could this
possibly have happened?

1478
01:08:48,025 --> 01:08:50,027
Is there any truth
to any part of this?

1479
01:08:50,861 --> 01:08:53,930
You go, okay, you're describing

1480
01:08:54,031 --> 01:08:58,269
these rituals in which
you are severely treated.

1481
01:08:58,369 --> 01:08:59,903
They cut you up with knives

1482
01:09:00,003 --> 01:09:01,606
and they sew things
onto your body

1483
01:09:01,705 --> 01:09:02,772
that are ripped off,

1484
01:09:02,873 --> 01:09:04,242
and they knock out your teeth,

1485
01:09:04,342 --> 01:09:05,709
and they do all these things...

1486
01:09:05,809 --> 01:09:08,379
...and then...

1487
01:09:08,479 --> 01:09:10,047
miraculously,

1488
01:09:10,148 --> 01:09:12,849
the Angel Michael comes
and takes all your scars away?

1489
01:09:14,385 --> 01:09:16,621
This is ridiculous, you know?

1490
01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:18,055
I mean...

1491
01:09:18,156 --> 01:09:20,391
the Virgin Mary appears
and speaks to you in French.

1492
01:09:20,491 --> 01:09:22,059
What?

1493
01:09:23,094 --> 01:09:24,861
<i>"Ma Mère"</i>
<i>is really the Virgin Mary?</i>

1494
01:09:24,961 --> 01:09:27,131
<i>-Yes, the Virgin Mary.</i>
<i>-She spoke in French?</i>

1495
01:09:31,902 --> 01:09:33,003
Well, throughout
the experience--

1496
01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:38,309
I remember hearing my sister

1497
01:09:38,409 --> 01:09:40,011
on the radio broadcast,

1498
01:09:40,111 --> 01:09:42,413
and she said, "Oh, but I--
I never knew French."

1499
01:09:42,513 --> 01:09:43,780
I was like, "Yes, you did.

1500
01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:46,450
You took it in high school,
for one thing,

1501
01:09:46,551 --> 01:09:49,187
and you won an award for it,
because you were so good."

1502
01:09:49,287 --> 01:09:51,422
Plus, my grandfather
spoke fluent French

1503
01:09:51,522 --> 01:09:52,889
and she used to converse
with him,

1504
01:09:52,989 --> 01:09:54,891
and she said, "I've never spoken
French ever in my life,

1505
01:09:54,991 --> 01:09:57,195
and it just poured out of me."

1506
01:09:57,295 --> 01:09:59,896
You know, just like
the lies poured out of her.

1507
01:10:01,265 --> 01:10:03,301
There's just
a variety of things

1508
01:10:03,401 --> 01:10:05,636
that can go on
in therapy

1509
01:10:05,735 --> 01:10:07,737
that we now know

1510
01:10:07,837 --> 01:10:10,441
can lead people
to false memories.

1511
01:10:10,541 --> 01:10:13,578
Guided imagination is one.

1512
01:10:13,678 --> 01:10:15,613
Using hypnosis
is another one.

1513
01:10:15,712 --> 01:10:18,516
Particular kinds
of dream interpretation

1514
01:10:18,616 --> 01:10:20,717
can lead people
to false memories.

1515
01:10:20,817 --> 01:10:23,487
Suggesting things
to the patient.

1516
01:10:23,588 --> 01:10:25,089
Reinforcing the patient

1517
01:10:25,189 --> 01:10:28,426
with, you know,
attention and interest

1518
01:10:28,526 --> 01:10:30,461
and other kinds of rewards

1519
01:10:30,561 --> 01:10:32,762
when the patient remembers

1520
01:10:32,862 --> 01:10:35,666
what the therapist
wants the patient to remember,

1521
01:10:35,765 --> 01:10:39,303
and sometimes,
the more lurid, the better,

1522
01:10:39,403 --> 01:10:44,075
in terms of producing a reward
for that patient.

1523
01:10:46,110 --> 01:10:49,113
The <i>Michelle Remembers</i> story

1524
01:10:49,213 --> 01:10:54,518
does seem to be a case
that has all these ingredients

1525
01:10:54,619 --> 01:10:56,621
that are known
to lead people

1526
01:10:56,721 --> 01:10:57,887
to think they have

1527
01:10:57,988 --> 01:10:59,624
repressed memories
they've recovered,

1528
01:10:59,724 --> 01:11:01,925
but then there's
this weird little thing

1529
01:11:02,026 --> 01:11:04,328
about how they get married.

1530
01:11:04,428 --> 01:11:07,365
So, um...

1531
01:11:07,465 --> 01:11:08,798
I-I don't know what to think

1532
01:11:08,898 --> 01:11:12,470
about the sexual,
romantic element.

1533
01:11:12,570 --> 01:11:14,871
That-That's a little different

1534
01:11:14,971 --> 01:11:18,476
than what you see in the typical
repressed memory case,

1535
01:11:18,576 --> 01:11:20,877
but that could mean

1536
01:11:20,977 --> 01:11:25,349
there was even greater interest
on her part

1537
01:11:25,449 --> 01:11:28,419
to do whatever she presumed

1538
01:11:28,519 --> 01:11:33,024
her romantic interest
would like to be done.

1539
01:11:36,060 --> 01:11:37,695
In the book,

1540
01:11:37,794 --> 01:11:40,464
very, very often
what is happening

1541
01:11:40,564 --> 01:11:42,233
is she's telling a story

1542
01:11:42,333 --> 01:11:44,168
and then Lawrence
is interpreting it

1543
01:11:44,268 --> 01:11:47,171
in terms of his experiences
in West Africa,

1544
01:11:47,271 --> 01:11:48,139
where he did

1545
01:11:48,239 --> 01:11:50,508
medical missionary work
for a while,

1546
01:11:50,608 --> 01:11:53,744
and he keeps mentioning that
this is like those practices.

1547
01:11:55,613 --> 01:11:59,417
We know that he witnessed
some tribal ceremonies,

1548
01:11:59,517 --> 01:12:03,020
he filmed them...

1549
01:12:03,120 --> 01:12:04,588
but you look at it
and you go,

1550
01:12:04,689 --> 01:12:06,057
"Okay, I believe you saw this,
but I don't believe

1551
01:12:06,157 --> 01:12:08,125
you understood
what you were looking at,"

1552
01:12:08,225 --> 01:12:11,895
but she has
grabbed pieces of it

1553
01:12:11,995 --> 01:12:13,764
and is pulling
this information out of it

1554
01:12:13,863 --> 01:12:15,399
and incorporating it
into her story

1555
01:12:15,499 --> 01:12:17,635
so that he can recognize it,

1556
01:12:17,735 --> 01:12:19,437
and then try
and make the connection,

1557
01:12:19,537 --> 01:12:23,274
and, like, put this--
this story together,

1558
01:12:23,374 --> 01:12:25,109
this false story
of these memories.

1559
01:12:26,843 --> 01:12:29,246
You know, people see
what they want to see.

1560
01:12:29,347 --> 01:12:30,581
I mean...

1561
01:12:30,681 --> 01:12:33,351
he's very Catholic,
so what does he want to see?

1562
01:12:33,451 --> 01:12:36,187
He wants to see angels.
He wants to see demons.

1563
01:12:36,287 --> 01:12:39,190
He wants to see
that sort of stuff.

1564
01:12:40,324 --> 01:12:41,692
This book features

1565
01:12:41,792 --> 01:12:44,894
an extraordinary number
of dead babies.

1566
01:12:44,994 --> 01:12:46,263
By the end,

1567
01:12:46,364 --> 01:12:48,632
it's just
a baby slaughterhouse,

1568
01:12:48,733 --> 01:12:50,634
and...

1569
01:12:50,735 --> 01:12:53,804
if your patient
starts seeing you again

1570
01:12:53,903 --> 01:12:56,073
because they're feeling
extreme grief

1571
01:12:56,173 --> 01:12:57,907
over a miscarriage,

1572
01:12:58,008 --> 01:13:00,478
and if they are telling you

1573
01:13:00,578 --> 01:13:03,647
again and again these stories
about dead babies,

1574
01:13:03,748 --> 01:13:06,117
I would imagine
that this patient

1575
01:13:06,217 --> 01:13:09,120
could be feeling
incredible, unresolved guilt

1576
01:13:09,220 --> 01:13:10,920
about the miscarriage.

1577
01:13:13,090 --> 01:13:16,460
But Dr. Pazder is Catholic...

1578
01:13:17,927 --> 01:13:20,030
...and so he decides

1579
01:13:20,131 --> 01:13:24,901
that whatever Satanic image
appears to Michelle

1580
01:13:25,001 --> 01:13:26,237
connects to something

1581
01:13:26,337 --> 01:13:30,541
that literally, physically
happened to her...

1582
01:13:30,641 --> 01:13:32,076
and I think

1583
01:13:32,176 --> 01:13:35,513
one of the things that stories
about demonic possession,

1584
01:13:35,613 --> 01:13:37,681
stories about Satanism

1585
01:13:37,782 --> 01:13:39,116
tell us,

1586
01:13:39,216 --> 01:13:41,585
is that there's a very clear
answer for all of this,

1587
01:13:41,685 --> 01:13:43,120
and it's God.

1588
01:13:45,089 --> 01:13:46,657
My dad was convinced

1589
01:13:46,757 --> 01:13:50,227
that this was
a really big thing.

1590
01:13:50,327 --> 01:13:52,163
I really think
he thought he was on

1591
01:13:52,263 --> 01:13:53,697
some kind of mission
from God.

1592
01:13:55,733 --> 01:13:58,569
And I lost my faith completely.

1593
01:13:58,669 --> 01:14:01,172
Like, I saw the Church
as being a part of it.

1594
01:14:01,272 --> 01:14:04,809
The Church is, you know,
drinking this in,

1595
01:14:04,909 --> 01:14:06,644
and encouraging it.

1596
01:14:08,045 --> 01:14:09,713
We found some documentation

1597
01:14:09,814 --> 01:14:12,216
about the fact that the book

1598
01:14:12,316 --> 01:14:15,085
was actually subsidized
by the local Catholic church.

1599
01:14:15,186 --> 01:14:16,854
Whether that was
a local project

1600
01:14:16,953 --> 01:14:19,256
or whether it went beyond local,
I don't know...

1601
01:14:19,356 --> 01:14:22,893
but it certainly,
you know, seemed like

1602
01:14:23,027 --> 01:14:24,829
it was a inspirational book
for Catholics--

1603
01:14:24,929 --> 01:14:26,597
<i>Michelle Remembers</i> --

1604
01:14:26,697 --> 01:14:28,232
and to the point where

1605
01:14:28,332 --> 01:14:31,068
the Church
was willing to subsidize it.

1606
01:14:42,246 --> 01:14:44,148
I don't have a problem
with Christianity--

1607
01:14:44,248 --> 01:14:45,549
I have a problem
with Church-ianity.

1608
01:14:45,649 --> 01:14:46,817
It's a business.

1609
01:14:46,917 --> 01:14:48,586
They're making money, right?

1610
01:14:48,686 --> 01:14:52,022
It's got nothing to do
with being devout.

1611
01:14:53,624 --> 01:14:56,460
Most of the people involved
in putting this out there,

1612
01:14:56,560 --> 01:14:58,995
they actually are interested
in three things--

1613
01:14:59,096 --> 01:15:01,866
power, influence,
and money...

1614
01:15:02,900 --> 01:15:05,236
...and they realize this is
a way that they can get it.

1615
01:15:05,336 --> 01:15:07,304
"I know that I can
use this information

1616
01:15:07,404 --> 01:15:08,739
to make you fearful
and pay me money.

1617
01:15:08,839 --> 01:15:10,341
I don't care that it's a lie.

1618
01:15:10,441 --> 01:15:12,076
I know it's a lie,
but it's not important.

1619
01:15:12,176 --> 01:15:14,478
I need your money.
I'm gonna get it.

1620
01:15:14,578 --> 01:15:16,013
I need your attention.
I want to get it.

1621
01:15:16,113 --> 01:15:19,116
I need power over people.

1622
01:15:19,216 --> 01:15:20,985
You will give it to me,

1623
01:15:21,085 --> 01:15:23,354
because you'll see me
as your saviour." Okay?

1624
01:15:23,454 --> 01:15:26,190
Over and over and over again.

1625
01:15:29,326 --> 01:15:30,628
"Ironic," I guess,

1626
01:15:30,728 --> 01:15:32,930
is the word
that some people would use.

1627
01:15:33,030 --> 01:15:34,999
But I've been involved
in many, many cases

1628
01:15:35,099 --> 01:15:38,102
involving Catholic priests
who are molesting kids,

1629
01:15:38,202 --> 01:15:39,670
and yet,
I've had people tell me--

1630
01:15:39,770 --> 01:15:41,105
devout Catholics say,

1631
01:15:41,205 --> 01:15:42,773
"Yes, you know these priests
who are molesting kids?

1632
01:15:42,873 --> 01:15:43,741
You know who they are?"

1633
01:15:43,841 --> 01:15:45,010
I said, "Who are they?"

1634
01:15:45,109 --> 01:15:46,644
"They are Satanists

1635
01:15:46,744 --> 01:15:48,846
who have infiltrated
the Catholic Church

1636
01:15:48,946 --> 01:15:50,247
to destroy it."

1637
01:15:50,347 --> 01:15:52,650
Okay.

1638
01:16:00,491 --> 01:16:03,994
As the Satanic Panic
wound down,

1639
01:16:04,094 --> 01:16:06,597
like, around '91, '92,

1640
01:16:06,697 --> 01:16:09,366
a lot of it had to do
with insurance companies,

1641
01:16:09,466 --> 01:16:12,536
because the therapists
and psychiatrists

1642
01:16:12,636 --> 01:16:13,537
and psychologists,

1643
01:16:13,637 --> 01:16:14,605
they were being paid,

1644
01:16:14,705 --> 01:16:17,141
sometimes covered
by insurance companies,

1645
01:16:17,241 --> 01:16:19,276
for these--
for this endless counselling,

1646
01:16:19,376 --> 01:16:22,013
and the insurance companies
started investigating.

1647
01:16:22,112 --> 01:16:24,114
They said,
"We're not gonna pay anymore."

1648
01:16:25,215 --> 01:16:26,517
Some of these patients

1649
01:16:26,617 --> 01:16:30,187
began to realize
their memories were false

1650
01:16:30,287 --> 01:16:34,825
and that they had been planted
by the psychotherapy.

1651
01:16:34,925 --> 01:16:36,727
Some of them
sued their therapists

1652
01:16:36,827 --> 01:16:38,162
for planting false memories,

1653
01:16:38,262 --> 01:16:42,067
and they ended up
with these huge settlements.

1654
01:16:42,166 --> 01:16:45,302
I could not stand...

1655
01:16:45,402 --> 01:16:47,371
what was happening
to my brain,

1656
01:16:47,471 --> 01:16:49,074
and the memories,
and the thoughts,

1657
01:16:49,173 --> 01:16:50,574
and the pictures.

1658
01:16:50,674 --> 01:16:52,142
<i>Although Dr. Hosen claimed</i>

1659
01:16:52,242 --> 01:16:54,012
<i>that he did nothing wrong,</i>

1660
01:16:54,111 --> 01:16:55,479
<i>his insurance company</i>
<i>settled</i>

1661
01:16:55,579 --> 01:16:59,216
<i>and they paid</i>
<i>Nadine Gould $2.4 million.</i>

1662
01:16:59,316 --> 01:17:01,585
I didn't even know...

1663
01:17:01,685 --> 01:17:04,588
that this doctor was a fraud
until recently.

1664
01:17:04,688 --> 01:17:06,690
And it didn't happen
to just us.

1665
01:17:06,790 --> 01:17:08,959
It happened to our children,

1666
01:17:09,060 --> 01:17:10,260
our significant others,

1667
01:17:10,361 --> 01:17:13,564
our spouses or ex-spouses,
to our family.

1668
01:17:13,664 --> 01:17:16,767
The issue is that counsellors
and therapists

1669
01:17:16,867 --> 01:17:18,135
are leading people astray

1670
01:17:18,235 --> 01:17:19,603
and destroying families.

1671
01:17:19,703 --> 01:17:21,672
We need laws.
We need things changed.

1672
01:17:21,772 --> 01:17:25,010
They need to be made accountable
for what they're doing.

1673
01:17:25,110 --> 01:17:26,011
Also, things got laughable.

1674
01:17:27,578 --> 01:17:30,414
There was the Church Lady
from <i>Saturday Night Live.</i>

1675
01:17:30,514 --> 01:17:32,182
Who could it be?
Oh, I don't know...

1676
01:17:34,085 --> 01:17:35,653
...Satan?

1677
01:17:35,753 --> 01:17:38,722
All of this has to do
with the changing zeitgeist,

1678
01:17:38,822 --> 01:17:40,491
and people understood then

1679
01:17:40,591 --> 01:17:43,560
that this was all pretty--
pretty absurd and out-there.

1680
01:17:45,362 --> 01:17:48,432
A bunch of people
were falsely prosecuted.

1681
01:17:48,532 --> 01:17:53,404
They wasted millions of dollars,
police chasing after ghosts.

1682
01:17:53,504 --> 01:17:55,406
All right.
We are ready for the jury.

1683
01:17:55,506 --> 01:17:57,541
<i>Raymond Buckey</i>
<i>and his mother, Peggy,</i>

1684
01:17:57,641 --> 01:18:00,244
<i>were the only McMartin</i>
<i>defendants to stand trial.</i>

1685
01:18:00,344 --> 01:18:02,279
We, the jury,
in the above entitled action

1686
01:18:02,379 --> 01:18:05,050
find the varied defendants

1687
01:18:05,150 --> 01:18:07,118
not guilty.

1688
01:18:07,217 --> 01:18:08,686
<i>Preschool</i>
<i>teacher Michaels served</i>

1689
01:18:08,786 --> 01:18:10,521
<i>five years in jail</i>
<i>until this year,</i>

1690
01:18:10,621 --> 01:18:11,855
<i>when her conviction</i>
<i>was overturned</i>

1691
01:18:11,955 --> 01:18:13,457
<i>by an appeals court</i>

1692
01:18:13,557 --> 01:18:16,493
<i>that questioned the reliability</i>
<i>of the children's testimony.</i>

1693
01:18:16,593 --> 01:18:19,030
Childhood sexual abuse
does happen,

1694
01:18:19,130 --> 01:18:20,964
but there
is something else going on,

1695
01:18:21,066 --> 01:18:22,533
and that is whether
some therapists

1696
01:18:22,633 --> 01:18:24,368
are actually
encouraging individuals

1697
01:18:24,468 --> 01:18:26,804
to believe in abuse
that didn't happen.

1698
01:18:28,639 --> 01:18:31,675
A lot of these things
simply didn't happen.

1699
01:18:38,582 --> 01:18:40,851
But the thing
that really scares me

1700
01:18:40,951 --> 01:18:42,686
is that, as people say,

1701
01:18:42,786 --> 01:18:45,389
if you don't study history,
you are doomed to repeat it.

1702
01:18:45,489 --> 01:18:47,324
<i>We're not</i>
<i>covering Pizzagate enough</i>

1703
01:18:47,424 --> 01:18:50,561
to expose the Satanism
and the occult.

1704
01:18:50,661 --> 01:18:53,064
We have
these strange allegations now

1705
01:18:53,164 --> 01:18:54,264
of "Pizzagate"
and things like QAnon--

1706
01:18:54,364 --> 01:18:56,400
the idea that thousands
and thousands

1707
01:18:56,500 --> 01:18:59,104
and thousands of babies
are missing, you know?

1708
01:18:59,204 --> 01:19:00,604
It's all sort
of coming up again.

1709
01:19:00,704 --> 01:19:01,638
QAnon...

1710
01:19:01,739 --> 01:19:02,706
with its claim

1711
01:19:02,806 --> 01:19:05,176
that "Satan-worshiping
pedophile elites"

1712
01:19:05,275 --> 01:19:06,610
are running our lives.

1713
01:19:06,710 --> 01:19:08,812
"Oh, boy.
Here we go again."

1714
01:19:08,912 --> 01:19:10,447
I mean, that--
that's exactly what I thought.

1715
01:19:10,547 --> 01:19:12,616
"Oh, no, not again."

1716
01:19:12,716 --> 01:19:15,953
<i>Man showed up at</i>
<i>that pizza parlour with a gun</i>

1717
01:19:16,054 --> 01:19:17,122
<i>demanding to know more,</i>

1718
01:19:17,222 --> 01:19:18,489
<i>and now this has become</i>

1719
01:19:18,589 --> 01:19:21,892
<i>the centre of a national debate</i>
<i>over fake news.</i>

1720
01:19:21,992 --> 01:19:23,228
I came to realize

1721
01:19:23,360 --> 01:19:26,730
this story is one of
the most relevant topics

1722
01:19:26,830 --> 01:19:29,299
that you could ever talk about
in today's world--

1723
01:19:29,399 --> 01:19:30,434
it's just not about

1724
01:19:30,534 --> 01:19:32,103
Satanic ritual abuse
of children,

1725
01:19:32,203 --> 01:19:33,804
but this problem

1726
01:19:33,904 --> 01:19:35,639
of what people believe

1727
01:19:35,739 --> 01:19:39,676
when there's no real objective,
professional evidence of it,

1728
01:19:39,777 --> 01:19:41,745
is an amazing thing
to behold.

1729
01:19:41,845 --> 01:19:43,413
It's not going to go away.

1730
01:19:43,514 --> 01:19:44,615
I used to think it was.

1731
01:19:44,715 --> 01:19:45,783
I used to think,

1732
01:19:45,883 --> 01:19:47,018
"Well, all you have to do
is debunk the stuff

1733
01:19:47,118 --> 01:19:48,219
in a rational way,

1734
01:19:48,318 --> 01:19:49,987
and I'll just
be a good journalist,

1735
01:19:50,088 --> 01:19:51,488
and I'll do that,"
you know?

1736
01:19:51,588 --> 01:19:55,793
And, uh...
it just happens again.

1737
01:19:55,893 --> 01:19:57,528
This has been kind of difficult
for me,

1738
01:19:57,628 --> 01:19:59,197
to tell you the truth,

1739
01:19:59,296 --> 01:20:01,999
to see that none of that stuff
really mattered.

1740
01:20:02,100 --> 01:20:03,433
None of what we did

1741
01:20:03,534 --> 01:20:05,536
really seems to have made
much of a difference.

1742
01:20:08,438 --> 01:20:12,676
We had to deal
with the "Bride of Satan".

1743
01:20:12,776 --> 01:20:15,679
All the time--
we had to deal with her.

1744
01:20:15,779 --> 01:20:19,184
And we had to live
under the shadow of that book.

1745
01:20:19,284 --> 01:20:21,019
We had to live
under the shadow of her.

1746
01:20:23,188 --> 01:20:25,856
Once they married,
you know...

1747
01:20:25,956 --> 01:20:28,293
we couldn't get
close to him anymore.

1748
01:20:28,392 --> 01:20:29,893
It was really hard,

1749
01:20:29,993 --> 01:20:32,263
and I think that's why
I really made an effort--

1750
01:20:32,362 --> 01:20:33,664
"I'm gonna call you
every Sunday."

1751
01:20:33,764 --> 01:20:36,134
I really, really
pushed for that.

1752
01:20:36,234 --> 01:20:37,401
During that time,

1753
01:20:37,501 --> 01:20:40,437
the phone calls
started changing a lot.

1754
01:20:41,705 --> 01:20:45,243
He was kind of
pulling away from her...

1755
01:20:45,342 --> 01:20:47,078
and I think

1756
01:20:47,178 --> 01:20:50,248
there was things coming up,
like, different things

1757
01:20:50,347 --> 01:20:52,482
that made me realize...

1758
01:20:53,517 --> 01:20:56,520
...that, you know,
that he was coming around.

1759
01:20:56,620 --> 01:20:59,324
You know, he had said,
you know,

1760
01:20:59,423 --> 01:21:01,525
"What if it weren't true?"

1761
01:21:04,628 --> 01:21:06,530
I was at work.

1762
01:21:06,630 --> 01:21:08,565
My sister, Tertia,
came up to my office

1763
01:21:08,665 --> 01:21:11,102
and she goes,
"Larry's dead."

1764
01:21:12,369 --> 01:21:14,205
And I was in shock.
I was just, like...

1765
01:21:14,305 --> 01:21:15,539
I said, "What happened?"

1766
01:21:15,639 --> 01:21:17,641
She said, "He got up,
went to the bathroom,

1767
01:21:17,741 --> 01:21:19,776
and fell."

1768
01:21:19,877 --> 01:21:22,479
Apparently, the ambulance
took a long time to get there,

1769
01:21:22,579 --> 01:21:23,747
but he was dead anyways.

1770
01:21:23,847 --> 01:21:26,550
He had a massive heart attack,
they said.

1771
01:21:28,552 --> 01:21:30,188
Michelle discovered

1772
01:21:30,288 --> 01:21:35,459
that he'd kept all his pictures
from his marriage to Marylyn.

1773
01:21:36,660 --> 01:21:39,297
Michelle was really upset
about that one,

1774
01:21:39,396 --> 01:21:43,467
and she said that, "He was not
the man I thought I married."

1775
01:21:45,402 --> 01:21:46,737
I went to the funeral

1776
01:21:46,837 --> 01:21:48,373
and I connected with Michelle

1777
01:21:48,472 --> 01:21:50,674
and I stayed with her
for a few days,

1778
01:21:50,774 --> 01:21:52,943
and then,
when I was leaving,

1779
01:21:53,044 --> 01:21:56,480
this little deer came
around the side of the house,

1780
01:21:56,580 --> 01:21:58,383
and it just stood there
and looked at me,

1781
01:21:58,482 --> 01:21:59,750
and it was weird.

1782
01:21:59,850 --> 01:22:01,919
I felt like it had
something to do with Larry,

1783
01:22:02,020 --> 01:22:03,453
like-- ah,
it's breaking me up right now--

1784
01:22:03,553 --> 01:22:05,522
and, um...

1785
01:22:05,622 --> 01:22:07,591
I don't know,
I just felt like it was Larry,

1786
01:22:07,691 --> 01:22:10,228
you know,
standing there.

1787
01:22:11,428 --> 01:22:15,400
I felt like he was asking me
to look out for Michelle...

1788
01:22:15,499 --> 01:22:16,967
so I did.

1789
01:22:17,068 --> 01:22:20,104
I said that to myself,
that I would look out for her,

1790
01:22:20,204 --> 01:22:22,307
for him,

1791
01:22:22,407 --> 01:22:24,409
and I've kept that promise.

1792
01:22:31,615 --> 01:22:33,684
She's a good person.

1793
01:22:33,784 --> 01:22:36,820
She had her life ruined,

1794
01:22:36,920 --> 01:22:40,391
first, by whatever experience
she did go through--

1795
01:22:40,490 --> 01:22:43,227
I am convinced

1796
01:22:43,328 --> 01:22:46,264
it's not mismemory
or false memory,

1797
01:22:46,364 --> 01:22:49,400
and then, the book,
you know?

1798
01:22:49,499 --> 01:22:50,435
It's ruined her life.

1799
01:22:50,534 --> 01:22:52,036
She hates the book,

1800
01:22:52,136 --> 01:22:55,472
because when people see her,
that's all they see.

1801
01:22:55,572 --> 01:22:58,076
And if anybody
should have blame,

1802
01:22:58,176 --> 01:22:59,776
as much as I loved Larry,

1803
01:22:59,876 --> 01:23:01,578
and I'm not even big on men,

1804
01:23:01,678 --> 01:23:05,316
but I loved Larry,
and he...

1805
01:23:05,416 --> 01:23:10,754
I think, was responsible
for the book.

1806
01:23:12,723 --> 01:23:14,624
I believe in the pain

1807
01:23:14,725 --> 01:23:16,427
that they experienced
as a child,

1808
01:23:16,526 --> 01:23:19,330
the details
of what they present.

1809
01:23:19,430 --> 01:23:20,831
I'm not there
to believe or not believe.

1810
01:23:20,931 --> 01:23:22,766
I'm there to try
and understand

1811
01:23:22,866 --> 01:23:25,936
what they're trying to tell me
of an experience,

1812
01:23:26,037 --> 01:23:28,538
and those experiences
are not simple to separate

1813
01:23:28,638 --> 01:23:31,009
from whether that has
actually happened to them

1814
01:23:31,109 --> 01:23:32,943
or that is their way
of trying to express

1815
01:23:33,044 --> 01:23:34,845
a profound pain
that they've experienced

1816
01:23:34,945 --> 01:23:37,248
beyond their body,
in their very heart,

1817
01:23:37,348 --> 01:23:38,982
in their very soul.

1818
01:23:44,489 --> 01:23:46,324
I always hung on

1819
01:23:46,424 --> 01:23:50,028
to that dad
that I grew up with...

1820
01:23:50,128 --> 01:23:52,529
and I think that's what
made it hurt so much,

1821
01:23:52,629 --> 01:23:53,630
is that you hang on to it.

1822
01:23:53,730 --> 01:23:55,932
You really love.

1823
01:23:58,436 --> 01:24:01,172
But he did
take her out of my life,

1824
01:24:01,272 --> 01:24:05,076
and that was the only good thing
about his death.

1825
01:24:05,176 --> 01:24:07,378
You know?
I-I, um...

1826
01:24:07,478 --> 01:24:08,712
It was...

1827
01:24:08,812 --> 01:24:10,381
really good to have her gone.

1828
01:24:10,481 --> 01:24:12,083
It was, um...

1829
01:24:12,183 --> 01:24:14,452
I think that's when
I started to feel

1830
01:24:14,551 --> 01:24:18,189
that that whole chapter
was over.

1831
01:24:18,289 --> 01:24:19,323
It wasn't one chapter.

1832
01:24:19,424 --> 01:24:22,093
It was a book.
Literally.

1833
01:24:23,827 --> 01:24:27,398
It was more than
any type of an affair.

1834
01:24:27,498 --> 01:24:28,899
Far more than that.

1835
01:24:28,999 --> 01:24:31,269
They were both obsessed
with each other...

1836
01:24:32,803 --> 01:24:36,474
...and she was
in love with my husband.

1837
01:24:36,573 --> 01:24:42,080
And maybe she saw our happiness
and she wanted it for herself.

1838
01:24:42,180 --> 01:24:44,348
But you see, you can't
get that for yourself,

1839
01:24:44,449 --> 01:24:48,252
because it doesn't belong to,
and it never will be yours,

1840
01:24:48,352 --> 01:24:52,090
because you-- if you try to take
somebody else's happiness away,

1841
01:24:52,190 --> 01:24:54,791
everybody's going to be unhappy
all the way around,

1842
01:24:54,891 --> 01:24:58,162
because it's not yours
to be had.

1843
01:24:59,297 --> 01:25:03,534
You make your own Heaven or Hell
right here on this Earth.

1844
01:25:08,004 --> 01:25:10,740
I think
she's living in hell...

1845
01:25:11,808 --> 01:25:16,013
...because the story has haunted
my family for years.

1846
01:25:16,114 --> 01:25:18,615
We could pretend
that we're a family,

1847
01:25:18,715 --> 01:25:21,452
but there's always
that feeling of,

1848
01:25:21,552 --> 01:25:23,387
"How could you do the damage
that you did

1849
01:25:23,488 --> 01:25:25,889
by telling a story
that wasn't true?"

1850
01:25:27,592 --> 01:25:29,293
If she came along
and said to us,

1851
01:25:29,393 --> 01:25:32,196
"Hey, I made it all up.
I'm sorry," you know?

1852
01:25:32,296 --> 01:25:34,865
Then we would understand,
but she hasn't.

1853
01:25:34,965 --> 01:25:36,467
She's never apologized.

1854
01:25:36,567 --> 01:25:38,336
She's never, you know...

1855
01:25:38,436 --> 01:25:39,769
Nothing.

1856
01:25:41,272 --> 01:25:43,274
Whether she made it up

1857
01:25:43,374 --> 01:25:47,078
or whether Larry and her
made it up together,

1858
01:25:47,178 --> 01:25:49,614
I don't know...

1859
01:25:49,713 --> 01:25:51,282
but she was able to do it.

1860
01:25:51,382 --> 01:25:52,649
You know,
she had a motive.

1861
01:25:52,749 --> 01:25:53,917
Her motive was

1862
01:25:54,018 --> 01:25:57,121
that she wanted Larry
as her husband.